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Nov 032015
 

Jared Fogle – Just One More Pedophile, But Wait……What About The Informant?

So, the news about Jared Fogle is out and I have to wonder how long he’ll last in prison. He agreed to plead, “Guilty,” to charges of receiving child pornography, as well as traveling to engage in paid sexual encounters with children and will be sentence to 5-12 years. His recorded conversations are, by every stretch of the imagination, chilling and utterly revolting. When pressed to explain his preferences with regard to age and gender, he is recorded stating, “I like all ages. That’s the thing, I mean, I like them all.”

Former journalist, Rochelle Herman-Walrond, was involved with the FBI in a four-year-long collection of evidence to nail Fogle as a child-sexual predator. What disturbs me most about this fact is that children were still being harmed during that period, whether they were being directly abused by Fogle, or whether he was viewing imagery of the exploitation of children being harmed by someone else. Throughout that time period, children were being damaged, forever. For this reason, I feel that the FBI should be taken to task as to why it took that long to collect evidence and to determine how deeply Herman-Walrond was involved in the whole charade.

None of this makes sense to me. Fogle is absolutely a sexual predator of the most despicable kind and makes no excuses or apologies for his choices, actions, decisions, and behaviors. He is a full-blown, real-life, and very active psychopath that will not ever, ever, ever change. He is beyond help. He is beyond salvage. He cannot and will not change. But, what does this make Herman-Walrond to be? A hapless informant for a government agency?

Mind you, these questions do not indicate that I feel one smidgen of empathy or compassion for Fogle. I’m not interested in his personal story because I don’t care what compelled him to use, abuse, and terminally damage children in such a way. What I am interested in is why it took so long to bring him to justice when it rarely takes that much time to nail a regular individual who attempts to set up sexual encounters, online, when agents pretend to be children in chat rooms and other technological venues. Herman-Walrond claimed that she had alerted authorities after having had conversations with Fogle that raised questions about his activities after she determined to develop a “friendship” with him after a media event. She claimed that she developed the friendship, at first, because her journalist’s instincts kicked in and later engaged in years of role-playing as per the FBI’s instructions. However, in further recorded conversations, it was quite apparent that Herman-Walrond was to accompany Fogle on his pre-paid child-sex-tour, abroad, and Fogle’s own words included her as an active participant.

In  my opinion a person does not go on about their sexual preferences with children with someone that they just met (generally speaking) unless there is a common interest. Furthermore, one doesn’t continue those types of graphic conversations for four years (or, more) unless there has been a bond of accomplice clearly formed. This just does not make sense to me.

What is clear to me is that this is probably  just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, and it behooves us all to contemplate this, for ourselves. I recently posted a comment about the behaviors of a woman that was being verbally abusive to a child during a visit to a local restaurant. In retrospect, I had an opportunity to ask to use the restaurant’s phone to call the police, myself, and I didn’t act on this idea. I do feel that it was one more learning experience for me: report abuse to the authorities, immediately, whether I have a cell phone or I have to use a business phone to do it. This is directly related to the case against Fogle – someone knew what he was doing, and the informant went on play-acting for years and I  find it difficult to believe that her role in this whole ugly case was one of an innocent bystander.

My belief and opinion is that Herman-Waldrond is involved just as deeply as Fogle was, and that someone besides these two people were 100% aware of what was going on and did nothing to stop him before more children were harmed. I have no “evidence” to support this opinion, it is my opinion  only, but from what I have seen in the news these are my conclusions.

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  65 Responses to “Jared Fogle By Blogger Truthspeak

  1. Truthspeak, you know how I PERSONALLY feel about child molesters and ones who watch and buy films portraying the rape of children…I have written extensively about child molesters that I have known, Jack Pratt, Charles “Jackie” Walls III, Dickie Chance, Kenneth Hamilton….all who were caught and convicted and either served time or are still serving time for their crimes.

    Dr Anna Salter who is the world recognized EXPERT on child abuse says that the average “first time offender” when they are caught have already offended 150-300 times. That they WILL NOT CHANGE, and I read an article about an inmate who is incarcerated for child molestation is almost 100 years old, but would still be a danger if he were released.

    There is a lot of research going on about pedophilia and there is some indication that it is, like psychopathy, genetic….there is also a cultural aspect, as in many Arab countries men of status and wealth keep “dancing boys” as sexual objects, and recently a US military man pushed a a man in Afganastan I think it was, who had abused a young boy, and the troops had been told, the soldier said, to IGNORE that cultural practice so he had disobeyed orders in pushing the adult male involved.

    There is, here in the US, a group of men who are “pedophiles” and have a desire for young children but DO NOT act on that desire. They even have a web site where they support each other in NOT acting.

    I think that those who DO act have higher psychopathic traits than those who do not.

    Pedophilia has been (and is still in some ares of the world) a part of mankind taking advantage of those who are unable to resist. I think based on the research I’ve been reading that it falls into two categories, one is genetic, the other is cultural norms for a specific culture, or a mixture of both.

    In our society and culture it is legally forbidden and is prosecuted where found. Men who are financially able to travel to countries where if it isn’t legal, it is not prosecuted, often do this and travel to Asian countries where they can buy. I understand your rage at Fogle and also others involved, and I too think that the TIME spent “investigating” was overly long when they had information that he was an active pedophile.

  2. I remember when Jared first came on the scene as the spokesman for Subway. To me he just ‘looked’ creepy. I couldn’t put my finger on it, but there was something there that wasn’t quite right. Some people just exude ‘YUCK!’ and he is one of them. At least to me anyways. My Creep-O-Meter was reading high and off the charts on this one.

    And now we know why….

    In the aftermath, there was discussion about a ‘game’ on the Subway website where kids could stuff a ‘foot long’ sandwich down the oversize pants of a computer animated “Jared”. All I could think was “Who came up with this? Who allowed it? and Who thought THIS was a GOOD IDEA???

    I ‘get it’ that sometimes an investigation will take time. Detectives want to be thorough and build a case that will STICK! But seriously people? Four years??? I can only imagine that if it was one of their children involved, being exploited, sexually abused or harmed in any way…. They would have closed on the deal much, much sooner. Now it is up to the prosecutors to FUBAR things and believe me they very well can.

    Thankfully my own case didn’t take nearly as long. It was long enough, but not nearly as long as this one and there was no fame in it. So many agencies, so disgusting on so many levels…. They shall all be accountable for their roles in the delay and how long it took, how many kids were suffering because of it. YUCK!

  3. Phoenix, I remember how long the case you mention took, and how the judge didn’t give him much in the way of “time” or “consequences”—-I usually watch Law and Order SVU and last night they had a case on that was SIMILAR to the Duggars’ family, only it wasn’t the son it was their minister that had impregnated two of their young daughters…in the show plot, .at first they had thought that their son had done it but it turned out to be their minister.

    The plot was similar to the Dugger thing though because in the show, the local Judge hushed up the family dysfunction (back when they thought the son had done it) just as the Duggars hushed up when they found out that their son had molested 4 young girls. AND the Judge here in Arkansas and a State Trooper KEPT THE RECORDS SEALED, and then DESTROYED the records of the molestations.

    One of the things I like about that show is that it has plots similar to those that make the news. Wonder when Fogle’s case will be on the show? LOL But the show does highlight that MOST molestations of children are not some stranger grabbing them on the street, but an intimate of the family or a teacher or minister.

    As for your “creep-o” meter, Phoenix. I have had the same thing with two pedophiles that I have known but of course never dreamed they were pedophiles and rapists, but several others I liked them. So you just never know, and they are and can be VERY difficult to spot.

    Dr. Anna Salter who is the recognized top expert on child molesters wrote a book about it and I learned a great deal about how the pedophiles groom the children. I also have first had experience with dealing with a child who has been molested, and what it does to these kids even after they are grown. It is heart breaking to see the destruction of innocence that destroys these kids. Any sexual assault at ANY age is awful, and having been raped at 19 by my own biological father I can testify to the trauma that rape brings, but for children who are groomed and told that this person “loves” them they may never recover.

    Fogle IS creepy I agree with that, but I never even imagined that the creep-o was a pedophile.

    • Joyce the creep-o-meter is usually pretty spot on. If it is even humming or buzzing I keep an eye open, defenses are up, time to just sit back and watch. It doesn’t often take long before the truth all shakes out. It may not be much or it may be something huge, but it will shake out, over time.

      Even if others like the person, it doesn’t mean I have to. That’s their choice to make, just like keeping them at arms length is mine. Now I don’t have to be snotty or rude to the person, but I’m not going to snuggle right up to them and declare them a ‘Bestie’ or ‘BFF’ either. I just don’t get involved in other people’s posturing and the wake of destruction sure to follow.

      • You know, Phoenix, another thing comes to mind that I was “sure” to do even when OTHERS WARNED ME about someone, if I had fallen for the “love bomb” I would NOT LISTEN TO THE WARNINGS OF OTHERS…LOL In hind sight it is funny, but it ALWAYS led me to a disaster of one degree or another, some of them pretty stress filled –I do not always “go on” the opinions of others, but you know, I sure do LISTEN TO THEM now, and don’t discount them, and am not as likely to fall for the love bomb any more either. But I know myself well enough to know that I am SUSCEPTIBLE to the love bomb, so I am WARY when someone comes on too strong upon meeting them. Also people with Borderline Personality disorder are really good at the love bomb and many of them are also really good at the RAGING as well as the Love bombing. So when someone fills out an instant application to be my BFF shortly after I meet them, I back WAYYY up!

        The old “once burned, twice shy” effect is here…but I haven’t just been burned ONCE but repeatedly because of my falling for the love bomb that disordered people are sooooo good at.

  4. Truthy and Phoenix, I just read the following article today and thought it was interesting, even the COMMENTS on it are showing that we are NOT the only people trying to figure out why the FBI took so long AND why they are downplaying the role that woman had in the case. maybe she WAS involved and they made a deal with her to let her go for her tapes and testimony…who knows. I don’t think it is right that they took so long though, IF she had let them in on the “secret” —maybe she didn’t let them into the loop until they had evidence on HER as well. Who knows? and we will probably never find out the answer to any of those questions. Also. letting h im on house arrest til sentencing etc is WRONG…WRONG WRONG in my opinion.

    Here’s the article and an interview with one of the victims. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3306396/I-felt-brainwashed-manipulated-Jared-Fogle-abuse-victim-speaks-time-recorded-hidden-cameras-just-14.html

    Also just a comment, I found out about a bus crash near Little Rock on this UK newspaper before I heard about it on the local news. LOL

    • The red flag in all of this is that Herman-Walrond appeared on the “Dr. Phil” program to talk about her involvement. If I had been involved in ANY type of investigation of that nature, I cannot IMAGINE wanting to appear on national syndicated television to TALK about it. I’ve been invited to “talk” about what the second exspath did, AND to address a State Legislative Assembly, and I decline both invitations.

      Appearing on any television talk show to discuss the horrific nature of the charges and activities smacks of extreme narcissism, to me. This is not……….not………..NOT “entertainment,” and it is being treated as entertainment that is scintillating and t-itillating. It’s shameful and dreadful and Dr. Phil isn’t going to facilitate an end to pedophilia any more than wishful thinking will.

      I just have a problem with this whole scenario………

  5. VeryZen, I can respect your wishes not to appear and speak of your experiences, but at the same time, there is some level of information to be gained from the victims or those involved in the investigation choosing to speak out.

    Apparently this woman feels she is reaching a much wider audience by going on Dr. Phil, and Dr. Phil may feel he is doing the community a service while educating the public. At the same time, both of them are making their money off of it and their faces known from the story as well. The education part of it and reaching audiences far and wide- I get that. I’m ok with that. The ‘fame and fortune’ part is what I don’t agree with, but with one comes the other and how do you separate it? It can be done, but is it?

    Being in somewhat of the same situation, though fortunately mine pales in comparison- Sadly enough I can relate. I’m just wondering how she slept at night, knowing what was going on and knowing she is a part of it.

    The FBI may have been involved but I don’t understand why it took so long to ‘investigate’. Sure they could have nailed him on a few charges and sure they may have been waiting for more to pile up, but 4 years??? I’m betting they had more than enough in 6 months tops.

    • Phoenix, appearing on a nationally syndicated talk show under the guise of “educating” others about human predators doesn’t fly with me, and the reason is very simple. Would I have listened to someone else’s story and connected the dots with my own situation(s)? Heck, no………the second exspath was a dream-boat in comparison to the first violent abuser. So…….it’s like Joyce wrote, above, if someone TELLS me something, I’m often not hearing their warnings. My father asked me if I was certain about the first exspath, and my mother tried to tell me about the second one before I married him. I didn’t listen to either person and, in stylistic contrary behavior, I set out to prove them wrong in each circumstance. “How DARE you question my ability to make a decision?! I WILL marry this individual and I WILL make the relationship *work!*” That was my response to their concerns.

      Similarly, when people are watching programs like Dr. Phil, they are typically regular viewers and the subject matter is always over-the-top as far as emotional reactions are concerned. They’re designed to generate the strongest reactions of outrage and horror while simultaneously generating a clear sense of helplessness and anxiety – this becomes “addictive” in that the NEXT episode of Dr. Phil is going to literally blot out the previous information. It’s not about “educating,” as we would like to believe. Programming like Dr. Phil is designed solely for entertainment purposes – sure there are tips and websites offered, but the bulk of the segments are given over to rants, raves, accusations, disclosures, evidence, boxes of tissues and running makeup, and all of the rest of the drama that goes along with it.

      The “fame-and-fortune” aspect can fall flat in situations like mine. Sure, I would have had my 3 minutes of recognition and the other participant would have had another opportunity to push her publications, but these things do not last. The only situation where an even more dreadful tragedy resulted in long-term “education” and concern was the abduction and murder of Adam Walsh. That spawned, “America’s Most Wanted,” which spawned other similar programs.

      SO, this woman that appeared to talk about Fogle has an angle. She’s going to write a book and screenplay a movie about her 5-year “relationship” with him and THIS is what has me concerned. The investigation went on for 5 years – I was incorrect about the time-frame, and I apologize for that. For 5 years, this woman PRETENDED to be interested in molesting children and even responded to Fogle’s interests by offering up her own children for him to see. If someone goes THAT long pretending to be THAT kind of person, surely there has to be some kind of personal involvement. And, as I mentioned, whether Fogle was abusing the children, or viewing imagery where children were being abused, the hard, cold fact is that children were being harmed during this whole time.

      There is a psychological rewiring that occurs when people go into lengthy and deep under-cover work. Sometimes, they become addicts or fill out their psychopathic corners and become full-blown criminals, themselves. My gut feeling about this Herman-Walrond is that she is just as disordered as Fogle is. We might learn more about it, and we might not. Either way, I don’t see her as ANY kind of “hero” in allowing an investigation to continue for that long. It smells (bold, italic, underlined) like a long-term setup for book and movie contracts.

  6. I agree with you guys about the “Dr Phil-type” show, Dr. phil is ENTERTAINMENT not educational….and while some very good examples of abuse have appeared on the show, I don’t think it does anything but “entertain” the watchers. Sort of like people gawking at a car wreck and saying “wow, glad that ain’t me!”

    I too don’t understand about her “investigation”–I would have gone undercover as well, BUT I would have notified the FBI or other law enforcement agency THE VERY MINUTE I saw signs he was a pedophile and I would have updated them on a regular basis to build a case.

    Also, I can imagine that the FBI needed something MORE than him just talking about WANTING to have sex with children, like him telling HOW HE HAD HAD SEX with children etc.

    I have a special hatred for child molesters, and I think ALL of them are full on psychopaths or they wouldn’t DO it…though there may be a hard wired genetic tendency for this behavior, just as there is a hard wired genetic link to alcoholism, but having the genetic make up does NOT EXCUSE the behavior. A person attracted to children CAN refuse to ACT.

    As for this woman, I’m not sure what the deal is, but I, like you guys, “smell a rat” in this whole thing a stinking dead rat at that!

    • Joyce, there’s just something very “wrong” about this whole scenario. Five years? It doesn’t take that long to “get evidence” on a true predator. Seriously, it doesn’t. If someone is THAT addicted to their deviances, then they’re going to make errors and visit websites devoted to that kind of deviance.

      These people aren’t “sick” or sad, in any way. If they act out their fantasies, they’re predators. EVERYONE has dark corners of their personality that they entertain, on occasion, bar none. Everyone has “intrusive thoughts,” as well. It’s when we start acting out on those things that hallmarks the step into a darker Universe.

      Somehow, and in some way, Herman-Walrond has manipulated this whole thing with Fogle for her benefit. I don’t have hard evidence or any proof of this, obviously. But, my gut is telling me that this doesn’t make any sense. And, that’s what I’m trusting rather than “her side of her story.”

      • To clarify, I don’t believe that Fogle was “setup” for any of the charges that he pleaded guilty to. BUT……..I do absolutely believe that Herman-Walrond immediately saw this as a personal opportunity. She is described as a “former journalist” and this means that she USED to tell stories. Many people who, at one time, wrote columns for publication feel dissatisfied or unrealized if they didn’t make it big like the gal that wrote the Harry Potter series. So….if they see an opportunity and they are, themselves, disordered to THAT degree, they can (and, do) use those opportunities for their own purposes. That’s what I believe happened with the Fogle “investigation.” Somehow, she is a part of what he did.

        Just felt I needed to clarify that. LMAO!

    • I can agree that the FBI needed some hard evidence on Jared before they could arrest him. It’s the difference between making a case that sticks or one that doesn’t. Building a case takes time, but 5 years? Seriously??? The way I read it, Jared was telling this woman early on, what a pedophile creep he was. She went to the authorities, but then played along with Jared for 5 years to help them build the case against him. I don’t doubt at all that she was also involved, but may have been granted some kind of immunity as she was ‘helping gather evidence’. Sick! Just Sick!

      I also feel that since it is in the hands of the prosecutors now, it’s their chance to FUBAR the whole mess and disappoint the public in them doing their job. I’ve seen it before, won’t be surprised when it happens again.

  7. I too had heard and/or read that the investigation had been 4 years. Now it’s 5 years? I’m not sure if that’s any better or worse? And the idea of her offering up her own children??? Her thought process is obviously pretty warped.

    I certainly wouldn’t be offering up my own kids let alone anyone else’s, as much as I would be going all CRAZY MAMA BEAR, up. in. his. s.h.i.t. That whole cliché about “HeII hath no fury…” comes to mind

    I get that about us not ‘seeing the light’ when people like Dr. Phil are discussing the very things we do. It’s seeing it in ourselves vs. us being able to spot it in others. I’m just as guilty as anyone else in that respect. It’s the whole Insight/Outsight thing going on.

    We could be told the same thing by 10 different people, 10 different ways on 10 different days and still maybe not ‘get it’. We may only ‘listen’ to 1 of those ways because of HOW the message is delivered. Most importantly we would only finally ‘listen’ or ‘wake up’ because we are ready to HEAR or ACCEPT that message for what it is. I was told by numerous people to “GET OUT!” for a long time (a couple of years at least) before I finally did.

    What finally broke it all down for ME? I found undisputable proof of what a sick minded f#ck the spath is. I had to see the evidence for myself. The red flags? Oh there were plenty of them there all along. Had I seen things clearly or been thinking straight from the beginning? That white hot mess of sh-it would have never happened. But sometimes we have to go thru that white hot mess to learn our lesson. It’s a hard lesson learned, but one we certainly won’t forget.

  8. Phoenix, you are totally right about us not listening to warnings and ignoring RED FLAGS waving in the breeze….I can think of a couple of instances where I did not listen because I was BLINDED to the red flags by the “love bomb”—once it was with a business partner and another time it was by a woman who was “love bombing” me in order to hire me…I was WARNED about them both and ignored the warnings to my own peril…

    The boss turned out to be a harpy, and the business partner tried to rip us off and though he didn’t succeed, he caused a lot of expense and stress to protect ourselves from him when in the end the warning was shown to be 100% right on.

    Now, I LISTEN to warnings about people…and I take note of the “love bomb” (it is a red flag in and of itself)

    Can I be conned again? Probably, but not nearly as easily as before. Once burned, twice shy. I was burned before but I didn’t “get it” about what burned me, now, I realize the type of person who burned me and it doesn’t matter WHY they burned me, just that they DID burn me. It doesn’t matter if they do it because they are mentally ill, or if it is because they have a personality disorder…I just don’t need the drama in my life or to have to dodge someone’s rages from time to time.

  9. Yes Joyce, the ‘love bomb’ is a red flag of it’s own. WHY does someone have to come in all ‘Pince Charming’ and be my ‘Knight in Shining Armor’ or my ‘Saviour’ before we’ve even been properly intoduced? Holy HeII man! That takes time. Time for your true colors to come out, time for you to drop the facade and show you true self. Time for you to show me you can be trusted, you can manage your own life, how you handle problems and how you pay your bills.

    To say I am a skeptic, cynical and probably jaded? You bet! There are many things I go in with open eyes and an open mind, but I still reserve the right to protect myself. People who question this? There’s two ways I see it-
    1) they’ve never been burned before. If they had, they would understand. No explanation needed.
    2) they are trying to gain the upper hand. Sorry, I don’t play games. You’re playing games? I’m out.

    Me protecting myself includes a “One and Done” approach. Some things I don’t need to Lather, Rinse, Repeat to know i doesn’t work for me. “I reserve the right to protect myself.”

  10. Phoenix, you know I agree with you on the “one and done” but. Looking over the 30+ years that my BFF would periodically “go off on” me without any warning, j—ust explode out of “no where”–I wouldn’t have been quite so tolerant. LOL

    Back when I was working in a juvenile psych unit where 90% of the inmates in this locked units were teenaged girls with bi-polar and/or borderline personality disorder. And those 15-18 year old girls would SUDDENLY flare up mad and try to scratch your eyes out, and after they had been physically restrained from doing so, and given an hour in time out they would put their arms around you and want to be your BFF, totally forgetting that an hour before they were trying to do you great bodily harm, and they could not SEE why you would be “stand-offish” with them. The instant friend, instant enemy, and instant friend AGAIN was the drama-rama of their lives and of the lives of their families.

    We could treat the bi-polar to some extent with medications (but after release they refused to take them) but there is not really any successful treatment for borderline PD any more than there is for psychopathic PD. Their lives are chaotic, many with FOUR AND FIVE MARRIAGES, or relationships….rage issues, etc. People with bi-polar WHO DO THEIR BEST AT TREATMENT are usually okay, but those who also have a personality disorder are in my book, not someone I want to deal with. The PERSONALITY DISORDERS are not successfully treatable by any means except incarceration.

  11. I get it about your BFF going off and tolerating or allowing it. I grew up with that. I allowed it from others too, because “we all have bad days”. Well yes, we do. But that doesn’t mean we can take it out on others.

    • OR………if we DO take it out on other people, then standing accountable for our own actions and making an sincere apology.

      This thing with Fogle has now been hushed and we’ll be amazed by the book and made-for-television movie about this long-term “sting,” and Herman-Walrod will make a ton of money for her “story.”

      Re the “Knight In Shining Armor,” it’s typically a ploy, in my book. If it ISN’T a ploy and the sentiment is genuine, it’s STILL a red flag because the other party is assuming that I WANT to be rescued, or they are determining that I NEED to be rescued. I’ll take neither, thank you.

      I think about how my life unfolded and how I made nearly all of my decisions based upon fear and catastrophic thinking, and I can truly and sincerely say that I am grateful, today. I’m so grateful that I’m not the same person that I was and that I don’t ever have to accept that role, again.

      Jaded? No, I don’t think “jaded” is what we have become. “Jaded” infers a measure of contempt along with skepticism. What I have become is a “realist.” I may not ***like*** the fact that abusers do not change and are, for the most part, 100% sociopaths, but I’m willing (and, able) to ACCEPT facts, as they are. In my previous life, “facts” were associated with mathematics and this language confounded me. Perhaps, it was because of my inability to ACCEPT facts that made learning mathematics such a quandary – there was no negotiating the facts, and I couldn’t function in a space that didn’t allow for denial, wishful thinking, or negotiation.

      Odd, that. That just struck me as I was typing. I am grateful that I have the ability (and, choice) to accept facts for what they are, rather than feeling and believing that I have to alter them into a happy ending.

  12. Phoenix and Zen, you know I think you both hit on the ONE THING that almost all of “us” have in common, “I grew up with that” and THAT became our “normal,” and we did our best too “keep the peace” when others acted aggressively or did the “pity ploy”

    I remember back when Uncle Monster was alive and my mother would have him over to her house for Christmas. I refused to eat with the man and my mother would rage and then cry about how I was “ruining HER Christmas” And I never could get it across to her that by DEMANDING that I have Christmas dinner with Uncle Monster that she was impacting mine. So my solution was to take my kids and/or husband and go somewhere else for Christmas dinner—about this time my living history group began an annual Thanksgiving event from Wednesday to Sunday on Thanksgiving and so I went there instead of to my mother’s house with uncle Monster. I think this year with be the 19th or 20th event and I think I have only missed one during that time. The event is about a half hour from me, so I come home at night to sleep instead of sleep in a tent (and also that allows me to take care of my animals here at the farm as well.

    The old ” if you please yourself you will displease me and I will rage at you or cry and try to guilt trip you until you do what I want” drama-rama had been my “normal” all my life. So thought I fought giving in to it many times I did give in to whatever it was that others wanted me to do.

    Treating others “as you would have them to treat you” and being kind, courteous, etc. but not being a door mat is a balance. I laugh about it now, but when I caught my “friend” (not the BFF, someone else) STEALING, caught her red-handed, and I cried for 3 days because I was so upset I had “embarrassed” HER. LOL but after that 3 day crying jag, I finally realized I was going to have too set some boundaries and that I didn’t want “friends” like that in my life. I had walked on eggshells with her and her husband but I finally grew a back bone and set some boundaries. It was almost like a switch was turned inside my head that boundaries, REASONABLE boundaries in what we will tolerate are a NECESSARY thing.

    If we treat others well, and they treat us poorly REPEATEDLY without signs of REAL remorse which we can see by the repeated behavior then what do we need this person for? I cleaned out my Rolodex of a lot of folks. Folks I cared about, but realized that I was simply “supply” to them.

  13. Joyce- the first part of the second paragraph of what you wrote is SPOT ON! The spaths and otherwise toxic or disordered don’t give a flying leap what they are doing to us, how they are disrupting our plans or impacting our lives. Nope, Nope, NOPE! It’s all about them. What they want and what they planned. They expect us to bow to their wishes and man do they try and blame, shame and guilt trip us into doing it.

    In reality, if there were chairs actually remaining vacant since yours and your family’s arse’s weren’t there to grace them, I doubt it did so for long before someone else sat down to eat. You weren’t missed, someone else took your spot as the ‘punching bag’.

    Family dynamics have changed so much around here, I have begun looking at Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years as the Holi-don’ts. As in, I Don’t have to spend them with anyone I don’t want to. lmao

  14. Phoenix, you are spot on about the “chairs”—when I was studying “family role theory” about how each of us (in dysfunctional) families is ASSIGNED a “role” to play, and if the person assigned to “role X” refuses to play that role, then another person is ASSIGNED that role. The actors themselves don’t matter, but the ROLE does because it is ESSENTIAL to the FAMILY DRAMA.

    A person Refusing to take their assigned role disrupts the family drama just like an actor in a Broadway play refusing to say his lines the way the script is written would disrupt the play.

    In the 1970s “family role theory” was developed and written about and I studied it, but of course DIDN’T APPLY IT TO MY FAMILY. LOL But looking back I can SEE clearly how it DOES apply to not only others, but to my own family as well.

    When I refused to continue to play my assigned role, to continue to protect the family bad boy no matter what he did, it upset the drama and enraged not only the family bad boy but others as well.

    In larger families another “actor” would be assigned to the role I abandoned, but in a small family with few members there wasn’t anyone else to assign to the role after my Daughter-in-law who PRETENDED to take on the role I had abandoned turned out to be a “surprise” bad guy herself.

    And of course the family SECRETS all came out when I went public with it all, which is the greatest shame of all. I became the ENEMY to those actors still in the play.

    Stepping away from the family drama, refusing to play the victim or the persecutor or the rescue,r frequently becomes dangerous. No contact in some cases will give us peace, but frequently total NC is not possible. Like in my case with Patrick coming up for parole ever so often, or in the case of people like you who share CHILDREN with these monsters who continue to disrupt our lives in one way or another.

    Since we can’t totally come to NO contact, the only thing we can do is to refuse to let the contact we are forced to have slide off our backs like water off a duck’s back emotionally at least. I will have to periodically prepare a parole protest because Patrick DOES try to get out and you will have to cope with an ex husband who shares DNA with your children and his “rights” are protected by the courts…it’s a shame the RIGHTS of the children to not have to associate with a psychopath are not enforced. But we CAN and we must not allow this to be the total focus of our lives. To let it throw us into a spin-cycle like I did the last time that Patrick came up for parole. In the spring I will have to start the protest process all over again, but I do not intend to let it “freak” me out again.

    Each time we overcome some hurdle, we become stronger…..and we can learn from each failure on how to cope in the future. I am determined to win by keeping him in prison if I can and protect myself if I must, but I am also determined to NOT let anxiety, rage, fear and worry ruin my own life.

    • I don’t know that the roles are so much assigned once vacated, but maybe the person taking on the new position has either stepped up and offered to do so or just assumed it in one way or another. Maybe they Wanted your ‘position’ or role and thought you had some kind of power, being the victim, persecutor or rescuer. You had some kind of ‘edge’ that they envied and wanted. You stepped down, by removing yourself from the situation and they in turn stepped in to take over.

      In my own family, I’ve seen enough to know that by exiting stage left, someone else will be more than happy to take over for me. Good for them! If they choose to play into it, that’s their choice to make.

  15. Oh, BTW I saw yesterday in the news that though the prosecution had only asked for 12 years against the defense’s 5 years, Fogle was given FIFTEEN YEARS by the judge. So he will be in prison for a long time yet to come. Essentially for the rest of his life. Or at least til he is a very old man….and good enough for him. He let his perversions cost him everything he had from his fortune to his wife, good name etc. He ended up paying $100K to each of 14 victims, and his wife divorced him and I am sure took a great deal of his fortune as well as his expensive lawyers taking another big chunk, so he should come out of prison if he ever does broke and alone.

  16. You know, I’m not happy, glad or even disappointed in any way that Jared got this sentence. It’s what he deserves. It’s sad that he is such a messed up person that he did what he did. Prison is a good place for him.

    While $100K is a lot of money to the average person, it’s nowhere near enough for what Jared has done to his victims. I honestly don’t think there is a dollar amount that justifies things and makes up for it. I know the judge has to assign a number to things and it is typically something within the offenders ability to pay, but I’m just not sure what that number should be.

    Money gets spent, but the pain, anguish, shame, emotional baggage and everything else that goes along with being victimized, doesn’t go away. These kids will carry the thoughts, memories and guilt with them for life. Money doesn’t last that long. Never has, never will. Even if it did, money doesn’t make you forget.

  17. A couple of years back, I was in discussion with my son, Bob, about what the second exspath deserved. I went through a laundry list of possible punishments, but my son simply said, “Ninth circle.” I asked what he’d meant by that and he explained that Dante named the “Ninth Circle of Hell” in his epic, “The Inferno,” as the worst possible punishment imaginable. It would be the coldest, loneliest, darkest, place that was reserved for those who committed betrayals.

    “Why betrayals?” I asked.

    “When someone is betrayed, there’s no end to that suffering. Even murder victims have an end to their suffering, at some point. But, a victim of betrayal has to wake up and live with the betrayal every day of their life until they finally die,” he answered.

    This came from someone that I had always viewed as immature and impractical – someone who wasn’t living with any semblance of common sense. It’s what I needed to hear, at that time.

    People who betray the trust of others, especially innocent children, have to pay for their actions. Either in THIS lifetime, or the next, there must be a balance. So……I have not one bit of pity for him.

    As for Herman-Waldrop? I think the onion layers will expose a very rotten center, once they’re all peeled back.

  18. Zen, you are totally right about betrayals, but I do think that we CAN (with work etc) come to acceptance of these betrayals and let the bitterness or pain GO.

    The opposite of love is NOT “hate” it is INDIFFERENCE and I am finding myself becoming INDIFFERENT to those people who have betrayed me, even Patrick. Even though he has been in prison his entire adult life and over 50% of his entire life, the THOUGHT (in my mind) of him, he was PRESENT EVERY DAY IN MY HOME…when in fact, he was totally NOT THERE except in my own mind. So when I realized the FINAL betrayal, then I was devastated, hurt and wounded because my OWN FANTASY of his presence, etc was dashed. I grieved over this PERCEIVED LOSS…when it fact it was only a FANTASY that I lost) Now that I have come to accept that I actually lost NOTHING except my “belief in Santa Claus” (so to speak) acceptance is much easier… the grief process has finally ended in acceptance and PEACE.

    Unfortunately, way too many people allow a betrayal or a rape or other abuse to BECOME their entire lives, to define it. Yea, my kid wants me dead, but that is NOT going to define me. I refuse to let it define me. Or any OTHER TRAUMA I have suffered in my life. I REFUSE to let any event, however traumatic or painful, DEFINE ME.

  19. AMEN Joyce! I could let a number of things I have been thu in life ‘define me’. But even though I am a divorcee, single parent and a bunch of other ‘labels’ someone may wish to tack on and accredit me with, at the end of the day… I’m still ME!

    I will do what I can and do what it takes to make sure my kids have what they need, are happy, feel secure and loved. That’s one of the very few ‘labels’ I will really ever let “define me”.

    TOWANDA!

  20. Joyce & Phoenix, I totally agree that the experiences don’t have to define anyone – it’s determined by the survivor, themselves, as to what they will (and, WON’T) be.

    Yep, the grieving is necessary and the acceptance can occur through that process. What happened to me is not who I am. And, I recently began to address this via my own se-xual identity. NO……….I’m not going to declare that I’m some trans-quasi-semi-fluid-gendered individual! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That does make me slap my knee, I have to say. No, that’s not what I mean.

    What I mean is that I identified my own se-xuality as per Chuck’s specific interests. I’m working on that, finally. Just because he chose to indulge in his perversions does not mean that I am the same. He hid those predilections and his true nature which didn’t stop at deviant acting-out. SO………this has been a challenge to separate myself – every aspect of myself – from him, entirely.

    Nope…..no labels, here, thanks!

    TOWANDA ………back atcha!! 😀

  21. guys, you are both so right! WE define who and what we are by OUR MORAL COMPASS…and every day we have a new opportunity to define ourselves with every choice we make.

    Each stage of our lives has a “task” that we need to accomplish, starting out to learn to trust other humans to meet our needs as infants…and toddlers…and school age, teenage, etc. and if those tasks are not accomplished in the correct order and to the correct amount,. it leaves us not functioning well in the next stages of our lives.

    If we are “programmed” with FAULTY thinking like “there is good in everyone” or “everyone deserves a second chance” etc then we will act under those FALSE mottoes and our lives will not go well.

    But we have a choice (even if we did not/do not recognize it) and that is to RE-program ourselves and go “back” and LEARN the things we missed in the earlier stages of our lives. OR we can NOT learn those things, but if we dont’ learn them then the rest of our lives will be lived as victims because of our faulty thinking. We have the choice.

    I fully believe that there is a GENETIC tendency for pedophilia, but the CHOICE to act on it or not is WITHIN THE CONTROL OF THE INDIVIDUAL…Jared Fogle may have been born with the tendency or learned the tendency to be sexually attracted to children of both sexes, but he KNEW it was illegal and he decided he would do it anyway. Just like a person who decides to rob a bank or kill someone knows it is WRONG, ILLEGAL, but they just don’t care about the laws of society or other people’s definitions of what is “wrong” and “right”–they want what they want and they want it now, like petulant children.

    We ALL have choices each day. And yea, I’d love to have a million dollars, but as much as I’d love to have it, I’m NOT going to choose to con or scam someone out of their money or rob a bank. Even if I could “get away with it” my own conscience would convict me. For those people without an active conscience…well, they do whatever it is that they want and think/hope that they will get away with it forever. Many pedophiles DO get away with it forever….or at least many many years. I think Jared should have gotten life without parole though.

  22. Joyce, when you said you believe there is a genetic tendancy for pedaphilia, I have to agree. There may be a genetic tendancy, but at th same time, I wonder how much of it is also their upbringing. Nature vs. Nurture. If they are raised in the environment or even the culture where this is acceptable, how are they to know or even imagine this is WRONG?

    Looking at the Spath, his behaviour and that of his dad, it’s scary and ceepy the way his dad behaves as well. Knowing his mom will also lie in order to ‘support’ his cause, it’s sad these people are that disordered and sadder still they are all in denial. It will catch up with them all. If not on this plane, then when they transition over in death.

  23. phoenix, there IS also that CULTURAL aspect as well. In Arabic countries “dancing boys” are kept for sexual use by men of higher status, the boys are 8 to 11 years old. Recently one of our HIGHLY DECORATED OFFICERS soldiers in Iraq was dismissed because he shoved an Iraqi military officer because of the man’s use of a “dancing boy” and he was dishonorably discharged. the US soldier stated in an interview that the US troops had been ordered to IGNORE this behavior because it was cultural.

    Yes “culture” does determine the age at which a child is fair game for sex, it also determines whether or not sexual partners must actually be WILLING partners.or not.

    But…that said….which comes first, the chicken or the egg..i.e. the genetic tendency to prefer young children for sex or the “culture” being accepting of it? I’m not sure I know.

    Recent research using the fMRI has shown that the brains of pedophiles are actually different than “typical” brains. When I was in school we studied about how the woman’s body shape etc tended to be attractive to males…a shape indicating health and ability to bear children, but there were also cultural “norms” of what was “attractive” in one culture versus another.

    Western CULTURE has determined that young children are NOT fair game sexually, and we have enacted laws with age limits, and sanctions for those that break those laws (jail/prison etc). yet we also know that there is no SET age at which a person is accountable for their actions. Science knows that the frontal lobe of the brain is not fully mature until about age 25, and this is the portion that effects JUDGMENT. And of course we all know that young adults don’t always have great judgment…it used to be that age 21 was considered “majority” then it was lowered to age 18, though the age for drinking alcohol is in most states age 21…yet a soldier can go to war at age 17 or 18. Children as young as 12 are tried as “adults” for horrific crimes. So our LAWS about the age of consent for sex (which by the way is from 14 to 16 in various states) so that even though a child is less than the age of majority/adulthood, anyone over majority who has sex with them is not prosecuted. ditto for the age at which someone can get married. So there is a LOT of inconsistencies in the laws, plus with the DIFFERENT laws.

    I also realize that many “children” (according to the law) have sexual desires and act on these desires even before they are aware of the potential consequences like having babies or STDs…so the problems are never going to end, as each new generation of people repeat the problems, but people like Jared Fogle and his ilk will always be willing to exploit young children for sex.

    • Joyce, you are 100% spot-on. There have been, there are, and there always will be predispositions to deviance, regardless of what laws exist, or not. This is, in my most humble opinion, a part of the whole Human Condition. People can either choose to entertain their interests, or not.

      What a shame that the military officer was dishonorably discharged – perhaps, a change in duty stations or billets would have sufficed. But, a dishonorable discharge is an ugly label to carry around.

      I don’t condone what people in other cultures choose to do – it’s wrong, on every level, and reduces a child to less than an object because an inanimate object doesn’t have feelings, emotions, or self-perceptions. Children, on the other hand, are ruined by being used and tossed aside.

      Eugh…………………..

  24. Well, having traveled to 36 countries in my time as a wild life photographer, I realize that other “cultures” don’t all hold the same “values” that WE hold. So when we are in another culture’s “home” turff, we must abide by their laws and not attack their culture, so I see the army’s point, BUT that said, I dont’ think the soldier should have been punished so harshly.

    A while back there was a big outcry about some kid who was in the Pacific on some island nation that used “caning” to punish people who broke their laws and he was going to be whipped for his wrong doing. He was not a citizen of that country, can’t remember if he was American or not, but I think he was (memory not great!) and there was this big outcry that it was “wrong” to cane him….well, I didn’t have much empathy or sympathy for that young man because he KNEW he was breaking the law.

    There are also countries that ANY drug dealing is a capital crime and they behead them, and some guys got caught and beheaded for drug crimes. Well, when you knowingly break the laws in another country you SHOULD get the consequences.

    Sometimes the “culture” of a country becomes so “off the wall” that other countries have to stop them…like Nazi Germany’s culture of attacking other countries and rounding up and killing all the Jews they could find. Then war ensues…like with ISIS and their ilk right now. Those people are not just killing Christians, but even members of their own people who hold a different view of the SAME religion. So there is WAR because like Nazi Germany they are involved in killing anyone who isn’t in agreement with them.

    There was a time in this country that homosexuality was a CRIME, but our culture has changed. There was a time in this country that the Quakers were persecuted, or other sects, but our culture became more accepting of different belief systems as long as those systems were not harming others.

    The extreme right wing groups that want to kill all the black or other groups are not tolerated when they become violent….and neither are other groups that become violent regardless of whether or not they are black, white or green,

    And in THIS culture in the US of A, pedophiles are NOT TOLERATED when they use children as sex objects. And I don’t think they should be. Psychopaths are hard wired to have no conscience and to view others as prey, but not all psychopaths are CRIMINAL though they may not be pleasant people to deal with…and I do think that there is a genetic component to pedophilia as with psychopathy and alcoholism, but having a genetic tendency for X doesn’t give you the right to PRACTICE X, if X is a prohibited act. Whatever it is….be it an alcoholic driving drunk, or a pedophile having sex with children. Or like Patrick, robbing and killing others. Those people should be incarcerated to protect the rest of society if for no other reason.

    • Joyce, I agree that people should face whatever consequences arise for whatever crime they commit. I may not ***like*** the consequences OR the cultural practices, but I’m not IN that country and I don’t have any control over what that culture or their laws required.

      I’ve mentioned this to Bob on a few occasions when he starts complaining about how this nation functions. When I beat the crap out of Chuck after discovering that he’d been using MY money to fund HIS BD-SM trips to the “big city” for anonymous #########-ual encounters, I was arrested for aggravated assault and domestic violence. In SOME countries, I would have been beheaded or stoned to death for daring to strike my spouse! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! As it turned out, nasty ‘ole Chuck had the prosecutor dismiss all charges at the trial because he did not want the details of his behaviors on public record as evidence and testimony. So……….yeah………..

    • I remember the story about the kid who’s punishment was caning. FFS he was vandalizing cars that were parked on the street. Is that NOT a crime here in America???? Vandalism, destruction of property…

      President Clinton even got involved and asked for leniency. One of those moments where the rest of us as a Nation are disgusted by what our leaders do and the picture they paint of all of us.

      I’m not sure what the real or best answer was there. Maybe if the kids mom had disciplined him when he was younger? But then again, some of them are just born bad seeds and nothing you can do will change it. Do what you can and hope for the best. I feel he should have gotten the punishment as it was originally handed down. When in Rome…. If nothing else he may have thought better of doing it again no matter whose turf he’s on.

  25. Zen, people can reach a breaking point even when they are NOT psychopathic, and obviously you reached yours, however, you do OWN what you did, and learned from it, so that is all that truly matters unless the consequences of our “breaking” are fatal etc. I dont’ know a soul in this world who is perfect, and never did anything wrong. I have finally quit beating myself up for all my “breaks” and “mistakes” and it sure is a freeing state of mind.

    • Joyce, I’ve forgiven myself for my actions, that night. I had, indeed, reached my breaking point and both my divorce attorney AND my counseling therapist (at that time) believed that he had more or less planned on “something” happening in order to end the marriage. It ended the day that I discovered his bag of tricks but I just didn’t know what my options were at that point. LUCKILY, I hadn’t discovered the frauds prior to my actions! I can’t even say what I would have done if I’d known that he’d forged checks from my personal investment accounts!

      Everything is a learning opportunity for me, these days. Everything. No matter whether I “get it” the first time, second time, or if it takes a few times to understand the lesson. What you wrote is absolutely true that interrupting that cycle of beating one’s self up is absolutely liberating! Knowing – actually knowing in my soul – that it’s “okay” to be human, make mistakes, and BE imperfect is probably the most wonderful gift I’ve received, yet.

      Remaining in the present has also been a great help in the recovery and healing processes. Today is all that I have. I can absolutely plan things, but I’m not living in the future nor am I living in the past. I’m living and breathing in the here-and-now. And, that helps to relieve a tremendous level of anxiety and pressure!

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