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Even bad people do some good things — 34 Comments

  1. Joyce,
    From what I’ve read, Ted was rejected by his gf because she was disappointed in his lack of ambition. So he “turned himself around” just long enough to impress her, and then dumped her. Lucky her, because that’s when he started his murder spree.

  2. Yea, he “got her back” with the express purpose of DUMPING her too get even with her for dumping him first. How typical of Psychopaths, BUT I’m glad he didn’t kill her as well.

    I’ve read Ann Rule’s book a couple of times. It is interesting because she really KNEW him, not just interviewed him and had never met him before.

    Strange too that just before he died, he admitted his guilt. I remember his trial from TV stories about it. I can’t remember if the entire thing was on TV but there was a lot of it in the news.

    But I’ve known several really bad men besides my son Patrick, and each of them has actually kept up the mask for public and do “good things” and good works, while these mask the REAL monster behind it.

    But I know people who are connected with some “bad guys” who because he doesn’t beat them EVERY day, they focus on that “good” in him. DUH???

    Yep, “john is such a sweet guy when he isn’t robbing banks” LOL Like Jerry Sandusky was such a great guy when he wasn’t raping young boys.

    • I think this is ultimately what has happened to me. I dumped him about 11/2 months into the “””relationshit”””. I actually got snagged by another spath who was triangulating me and Spathx ( kind of I think?). So, quite possibly for a very long time it’s been payback Dotty time. It might be another infraction though….who knows. The point is, it’s not normal…He’s not normal. Sicko Bastard Mama boy

  3. John Wayne Gacy……Pillar of the community, did lots of volunteer work, rubbed elbows with local politicians, was married, had friends in the hood…………………and lured, murdered and buried in his basement, young unsuspecting men. My Spathx…….great guy as long as you don’t expect him to be anything other than a Spath. Funny, helpful, etc…….A-HOLE!!!!!!!!

  4. Dotty- your spath x sounds like mine. He only does it so that later he can throw the victim card. He’s an expert at when where and how often to play that one up.

    Yet even when drinking his lies are so bold faced, even if I were smashed off my ass, I can still see right thru them.

  5. Yea, I can name off several “good guys” on the surface who were monsters….Charles “Jackie” Walls III who was one of the most prolific child sex abuser was a big volunteer for the Boy Scouts for 20 years…he molested over 1500 known children victims, and even his own nephew who killed him self. When one of his boys “told” he got the kid to kill his parents and sister and of course the boy was caught…and it all came out. Jackie worked with my x husband and I knew his family, great people, but I never did like Jackie so I guess some intuition was kicking in and I just didn’t know what it was.

    A minister at my tiny little church was “such a great guy” til he got caught trolling for kids on the internet.

    Many people who are EVIL to the core “do good things” and mask what they really are. At least for a time.

  6. He showed his superficial charm a couple times out in public……”hey good lookin” to a friend’s wife, said lightly but it made my skin crawl, like…huh? Schmoozy/ charmer, CRAP!! Ewwwww! That kind of thing usually makes my skin crawl but I just blew it off! Some “sweeties” here and there…..tells, hints……all pretty clear and getting clearer and clearer. Sad.
    Good articles Joyce…..nice web site!!

    • Dotty you indicated in one of your posts that the man who abused you was an alcoholic. You might want to go read the article about offenders who are addicts (of any kind) and read the scientific article I linked to in my comments there, and also there is some information I think in the offenders coming home link that might be of interest to you.

      I know it is possible to stop abusing a drug or behavior, I quit nicotine and I know people who have quit alcohol and other drugs, but you know the stats are pretty LOW for people stopping and staying stopped. The drugs or behaviors that are addictive CHANGE the brain structure, and there is also an inheritable part too, to be more prone to be an addict.

      • Joyce, It’s weird……I was drunk in utero. I started drinking and smoking (bio mom smoked as well as drank when preg) when I was in the 7th grade but it didn’t really take off till I was in High School. I DRANK! I had periods of sobriety after I turned 30 but this is the longest I’ve ever been sober, about a year and a half now with one intentional “slip” last Fall.
        Do you remember the link I posted on 180 about Neuroplasticity? I think you would enjoy it, FAS aside. It talks about the “foot print” alcohol, cigarettes, etc. leave in your brain….even after the substance is long ago out of your system. The guy speaking in the video is slightly annoying but it is VERY interesting information and it’s current research out of Canada.

        I’ll check out the articles you mentioned and the links. I may have read the article about abusers and addiction??
        Thanks Joyce, !HUGS!

  7. Thanks, Dotty, glad you like family arrested, I just want to support the families of offenders (inside and outside of jail/prison) as the system spends a lot of time, trouble and money, trying to get the families of violent and repeat offenders to take them back into their homes. Unfortunately, that is not often to the benefit of the families themselves. They are just inviting trouble back into their home.

    Such a few criminal offenders really change their MOs but go back to whatever got them into prison in the first place. I was more than willing to take my son Patrick back iinto my home after he got out of prison the first time and it was only the grace of God that he decided not to come home because he knew if I caught him breaking the law I would turn him in, instead, Jessica Witt turned him in for stealing her grandfather’s credit cards and going on an $8,000 spending spree…so Patrick killed her.

    If he had come home, it would have been ME he killed. EVen after he killed Jessica I was still to take him back into my home to help him get settled. when he got out. My Mom still is wanting him to come live with her if and when he gets out. Fortunately, Texas has a law that I will be able to stop that, and probably keep him out of Arkansas legally, the problem is, even if they put a GPS monitor on him, he will cut i t off and come anyway. I just have to be prepared for when he does, but at least when he does, he paints a bull’s eye right between his eyes. I am prepared to defend my felf if I have to. Not a situation I want for sure, but whatever it takes.

    • Joyce,,,,,,don’t you just wish there was an opperation for someone like your son?? Like how you take a dog to get neutered so it stops humping and looking for “love”? I can’t imagine being in the position you are in as a mother. I don’t have children but to the best of my ability, I can imagine what a terrible thing this must be for you.

  8. There is an operation, it is called a “pre-frontal lobotomy where the front part of the brain is removed. That was what President Kennedy’s sister had, it was “all the rage” for a while by a quack doctor who started it, I can’t remember his name, but essentially, he poked a long ice pick like thing into the brain through the eye socket and just moved it around destroying that part of the brain, the people were left like ROBOTS.

    There was a man here in the county next to me who shot and killed a cop, then put a gun into his mouth and essentially preformed that operation on himself. There was a big cry about executing him, but they did anyway I think since it was a law officer he killed.

    But now there is no more of these operations done…but that is exactly the operation Patrick needs to be safe to release into the community. He could still walk and talk but would no longer be violent, but would follow directions like a robot.

    • Tragic Joyce………….this whole situation is tragic. I can NOT get around feeling “”sorry”” for these beings because of the way they have developed for whatever reason, nature/ nurture. It’s horrible, for them, for others, it’s a loose loose. I want to hate him but I can’t exactly hate him…..maybe because he didn’t do anything more than he did and therefore I see him as a love hungry child incapable of love.
      I think his mother knows something is wrong with him. I’m almost sure something is wrong with him that affects his executive functioning ability and makes him dependent. I can relate because my executive functioning skills are one of the areas that FAS affects me. I’m always discombobulates and always spinning, in catchup mode, behind the eight ball. But i struggle along as best I can and I’m stubborn and fiercely independent. Not everyone is able to maintain themselves the way others are. It really is a struggle for me, plain and simple. This situation with Spathx has derailed me in a way I can not describe and I don’t have my Mommy to wipe my a** at every turn like he does.
      All I wanted with us was to help and love each other. Thats all I wanted but he apparently was more interested in undermining the road to recovery and love.

  9. Dotty, just as we tend to give “human” emotions to our pets, we tend to give emotions to our abusers and the offenders in our lives like we have…but unfortunately, this allows them to continue to hold sway over us because we feel badly for them.

    Sure all YOU wanted was to love each other…but that’s not what HIS desires were. Why is he like that? Truth is, it doesn’t matter WHY…the point is that he does not h ave the same desires and goals that you do. So, what can you do about his wishes, goals and desires? NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZERO…

    If you had a large dog that you loved very much and you were very good to it, but every time you went to pet it or feed it, it savagely attacked you, or maybe only every other time it attacked you, but after you had seen that love and kindness didn’t change the dog’s behavior, at some point you would have to get rid of the dog.

    That is what amazes me about some people who insist that their “pet tiger” (a real tiger) is just a pussy cat! It is a wild animal, and no matter if you raised it on a bottle, when it grows up, it will be a TIGER. It will be dangerous and unpredictable, it is NOT going to quit being a tiger.

    Another analogy I use is if you had a pet rattle snake, no matter how much you love it or pet it, it is NOT GOING TO GROW FUR AND BECOME A PUPPY.

    Some animals and some people are just unpredictable in their behavior and they will intermittently do you harm. You cannot stay around such people and try to form a loving relationship with them except by putting yourself in danger…both emotionally and physically.

    Just like with my son Patrick, he is like a rabid pit bull dog…he cannot be trusted to not hurt me. So I have to cut loose from him, no matter how much I love him. No Contact, if you maintain it, will eventually give you peace. Believe me, it WILL.

    • Joyce, the dog analogy is a good one BUT……what if the dog wasn’t always mean? Or didn’t always bite you? My parents had a dog that was kind of like this!! A mutt dog but when the older dog they had died, this dog took alpha dog roll. I don’t know how many times it bit my mother,,,,,it wasn’t vicious but she would touch it with her foot and get bit or try to take something away and get bit! She LOVED him and he ended up dying of cancer…Im wondering if it was in his brain and affecting him somehow. The point?? I don’t know……LOL. Just sharing an odd mother story. Dysfunctional!!

  10. Frankly, Dotty, the dog could have been bred so that it had a genetically aggressive nature, and though there ARE pit bull dogs that are gentle, the breed as a whole is very aggressive.

    It is also possible that your mother ALLOWED the dog to assume the alpha role and that is how the dog maintained it.

    Frankly if it were my dog, and Ii couldn’t maintain the alpha role, I would put the dog down. No dog I own will bite me. Ii am ALPHA in my pack and my dogs know it. I do not beat them, because dogs do not understand a beating, to be struck by a “paw” is dog talk for “let’s play.” However, they do understand being growled at, being restrained and held by the ruff of their neck, or even picked up and put on the ground by the ruff,, as that is how their own mother disciplined them when they were pups.

    My Dutch Shepherd is a super aggressive dog, but she submits to me because she knows I am alpha and accepts that, but I have seen her put a 200 pound man in a “bite suit” on his butt on the ground, she can not be kicked or beaten off once she take a bite, she’s about an awesome critter. When she came into our home she was fully trained and she came into the house desirous of being top dog, and we had to make her understand the role she would play in the house. Now that she knows what her role is and what ours is, she is very content and as gentle a dog with the family as any beagle.

    A dog that is injured or hurt may bite if you try to pick it up, but a dog that is just aggressive and bites its owner either A) needs another owner or B) needs to be put down.

    • Yeah…..the dog was in serious need of an alpha pack member,,,,,,just like my Spath Bro was when we were growing up!! No, this biting dog was certainly not bred to be aggressive. Just a beagle mutt. I think he was in pain and getting senile. My Mother loved him but she was also loosing her mind and was SO hungry for love PERIOD!! 🙁
      It’s tragic……my whole life is filled with tragic characters like this. I used to fight non stop with her because she wanted me to be a reflection on her and fit into her preferred mould. Not my style! We battled and battled and I couldn’t stand her. Now, I have deep sadness for her, compassion and sadness. Long story. Neither one of my parents were equipped to raise a dog correctly, let alone two adopted children.

  11. Unfortunately, Dotty, there are many people in the world who don’t need a pet rock, much less a dog or a child.

    Because Border Collies which I used to raise train and sell as well as work are so hyper, and if they are not exercised sufficiently and kept busy with a JOB will frequently become neurotic..I would never sell one of my dogs for a “pet” but only to people who appreciated and would work them. My Dutch Shepherd is like an ADHD 2 yr old on CRACK and she keeps me busy trying to keep her exercised…and she is so danged smart I have trouble staying ahead of her. She jsut pulled one over on me tonight, she barked like she wanted to go outside but she really didn’t need to “go” just to see if she could spot a cat to chase, and since she will “pee” and “doo” on command, she PRETENDED to pee, but when we came back in she went straight to doggie time out in her crate. LOL

    • Joyce, my parents…..neither one of them would be considered BAD people……were ill equipped to raise children/ pets, let alone two adopted children, one with FAS (me) and one with Spath leanings. It was a disaster and I think the only thing that “”saved”” me was my inherent love and affinity for nature and animals. I could have gone much worse than I did. I thank God for my love of animals and nature. It is a God given love and interest/ fascination(nature). It’s just something I “have”. My first word was out dog’s name!! That is so telling to me!

  12. Ted Bundy probably started killing as a teenager. I remember reading a book about him, learning that a neighbor girl went missing. I suspect that he was responsible for this girl going missing. He was a peeping tom if I remember correctly. Ted’s maternal grandfather was a violent spath – most likely, also being his bio father. His beginnings were dark, family lineage.

  13. Yea, Blue, I read Ann Rule’s book about him several years ago, there’s a lot I have forgotten but he was very smart and also very cunning. He knew how to mask his evil intentions, unless you looked at the “whole picture” of him.

    Ann Rule as I remember only saw one side of him, and he seemed to be able to keep the different people in his life compartmentalized so that no one person knew the complete picture. Ann knew the “good side” of him, and let that influence her overall view of him.

    One of the things that is important is that we accept that even Ted Bundy, one of the most violent and cunning of killers didn’t kill 24/7. There were times that even he could “do good things” and appear to be a “nice person”

    Of course we have all acted badly at times, or lost our temper and said or done something we regret later. None of us is perfect, even GOOD people do some nasty stuff, but we have to look at the context. Is this a PATTERN in someone’s life? How SERIOUS was the loss of temper? Did the person slam a door or did they hit someone? or did they beat someone unconscious?

    We need to look at both sides, the good side and the bad side of someone’s behavior to make judgments about them as a “whole” person I think.

  14. Dotty, animals and our attachments to them, and to their unconditional love for us is something special.

    This evening Sheba had been romping with the shitzu Dude, and they were having so much fun, and she came over to me for me to touch her and she looked back at me over her shoulder with such love and attachment it made my heart melt.

    I’ve had a tough day, while I was waiting in the doctor’s office with my friend, I picked up a newspaper and saw the obit of a college friend of mine, and funny thing…the day she died, Tuesday, I was thinking about her and planning to give her a call and “do lunch” just catch up.

    I went to the “family hour” at the funeral home when I got back home and funny thing I was talking to her daughter that I know slightly and SHE was comforting me. Not sure just why it hit me so hard, but it sure did. Then later, another friend called me to tell me he had seen her obit and knew I was a friend of hers, and he thought I might have missed the obit since I don’t get a regular print newspaper any more…Been feeling kind of sad and lost this evening. But at least I know she went quickly and didn’t suffer. That’s a comfort anyway.

    The loving, unconditional love, from my “werewolf” is very comforting. I’ve always turned to my animals in my deepest grief.

    • {{{HUGS Joyce}}, Im sorry about the loss of your friend and yes, our animal friends are such a blessing and comfort at the worst times of our lives. Im grateful that you and I have that connection and comfort in our lives.
      It sounds like you are tuned in in many ways and I have had the exact same weird things happen in my life with people I know passing on. Strange spontaneous thoughts of them, calls to them seemingly motivated out of the blue before they passed. It’s fascinating, isn’t it??

  15. Thanks Dotty, it is some comfort to know she didn’t suffer. She had cancer and she died of a stroke, quickly, and didn’t live long enough for the cancer to be painful. So many people end up suffering and it is a great comfort to me to know that someone passes without great pain.

    She and I had some great memories and she was a one-of -kind funny individual with great heart.

    • Awesome all the way around. It’s always a blessing for anyone to not go the route of a long suffering illness. It’s horrible for them and torture for loved ones to watch.

  16. Joyce, this is an important concept in human behavior, and I’m glad that you brought it up.

    No, even “bad people” cannot be machinating and abusing 24 hours each day and 7 days per week. The exspath did “good” thing like taking bags of dog food to the local SPCA, but it was fleeting, this sense of “altruism.”

    The “good” things that spaths engage in are strictly to pad the illusion, whether it’s in public service or inside the walls of one’s own home. They do these things so that they can APPEAR to be “normal” and empathetic, when they simply aren’t.

    I have a good friend who just ended a very abusive and controlling relationsh*t and she kept asking, “But, he was so NICE at times. Didn’t that count for SOMETHING?” And, I didn’t have a gentle or pleasant answer to that. Yeah, it counts for something, alright – it counts in the game of crazymaking and gaslighting.

    Reconciling the actions with the facts is what is so difficult to process, I think. My son, Mike, often sends his brother, Bob, packages of stuff – things that Bob doesn’t need, and doesn’t particularly “want.” But, Mike does this every now and then to keep Bob on the list of people to feel “obligated” to remain loyal to him. I see this just as clearly as I can see the ring inside my coffee mug – it’s RIGHT THERE, and as blatant as all get-out. But, I cannot tell Bob all about his brother because he is stuck in cog/diss and is SO trauma-bonded to his brother that there’s no predicting if Bob will ever sort it all out.

    The female ex-con that was setting me up wasn’t always “bad.” She was often fun and hilarious – very energetic to be around. But, she was involved in personal machinations that involved taking money from people either with their permission, or without it. Money was the bottom line for her, and still is. She also likes to generate drama/trauma, and sit back to watch the entertainment unfold.

    But, the important thing to consider when observing people as Joyce has often suggested is to separate the INTENT from the actions and decisions. Is this person actually sacrificing of themselves, or can they afford their altruism? Is this person continuing a daily effort to be a “good” human being and NOT harm others? Is this person creating an illusion?

    The altruism, in the situations of spaths, is strictly for show. Strictly to feed the illusion.

    EDIT ADD: I wanted to convey my condolences to you, Joyce, for your classmate’s passing. I’m glad that you enjoyed a healthy friendship with her, and that you have those memories to keep precious.

    • Congratulate your friend, Truthy, for breaking free of that abuser. It IS difficult for some people to grasp the concept that even someone as much a monster as Ted Bundy can do “good” things sometimes…does that mean he wasn’t EVIL? Heck no, he was STILL an EVIL person who chose to do horrible crimes.

      One way of looking at it is “does the good thing make up for the evil things?” Of course NOT!!! Look at John Wayne Gacy for example. He made a lot of children laugh, but he also made a lot of children DIE!

      All of us make bad decisions from time to time, even King David in the Bible did some horrible things, but he REPENTED truly and tried to change his ways. But today, he would have gone to prison for what he did. I am sure there must be some offenders like David who do repent, and want to change their ways, or do change their ways, but unfortunately, too many don’t repent or change their ways and continue in their crimes, drag others into the consequences of their crimes etc.

      We can’t change anyone else, only our response to what they do. Separating ourselves ASAP from people who violate either moral laws or legal laws…who steal or abuse…those people have chosen their paths and we must separate ourselves from them.

  17. There is another facet of being involved with an offender and that is that the “good” people (victims and targets) often become entangled in BAD actions, choices, and decisions at the behest of the offender.

    The first exspath engaged in everything from growing weed in the attic to perpetrating insurance fraud, and I was ON BOARD with his activities, even though I abhorred them. Why would I allow such a thing?!!! Well, the simple answer is that I was afraid NOT to. The “involved” answer is that offenders and the disordered perpetrate a grand hoax. They present one thing, and are 100% opposite in what they truly are.

    Early on, I had informed the second exspath about some of the things that the FIRST exspath had done (insurance fraud, for example) and how he had browbeaten me into going along with his schemes – I also reiterated that I could never, again, tolerate such dishonest and ILLEGAL behaviors. SO…………so, to create an ironclad illusion that he was “honest” and “forthright,” he would verbalize his own disdain of questionable activities. To place the cherry on the icing, the first Christmas that we spent together, he received numerous cards from fellow employees that were stuffed (literally stuffed) with CASH. These gestures were an expression of appreciation for the exspath having scheduled monumental overtime, vacation hours, etc., for these corrections officers. His hands literally shook as he counted out over $500 in gifts from these people and he said, “I have to give this back. I have to call Internal Affairs.” Whether or not he actually DID return the money and call IA, only he and God knows. My belief is that he SAID this to make be believe that he was on the up-and-up and pocketed the money, himself. This happened during a time when we were in financial straights, and knowing what I do about the exspath, today, if he returned that money and called Internal Affairs, my name is “James Earl Jones.”

    The point is that victims and targets are vehicles and tools to help the offenders and disordered to get the job done, whatever it may be. We are coerced, manipulated, and bullied into either participating or supporting THEIR stupid choices.

  18. It is amazing how the offenders can “suck us into” their illegal activities…like Bluejay’s X wrote her from jail wanting her to get the witness against him (the owner of the truck he stole) to drop the charges…fortunately Blue said NO…or she would have been guilty of “witness tampering.” Which is a big felony in most places.

    When we become entangled with an offender that will engage in illegal/immoral activities, they will do their best to suck us in. When that happens, we are also breaking the law and could very well wind up in prison ourselves. It’s not easy to say “NO!” because it usually starts out small, just a tiny little thing, and then the things they want us to do get bigger and bigger.

  19. Joyce and Truthy,
    You are exactly right. The ex-spath, made sure each of his minions had committed some kind of illegal or immoral action that he could hold against them. After that he was free to do what he wanted without fear of repercussions from them.

    At first he would tread lightly, only asking them to accept the bad behavior from him. Then it would move into wanting their involvement. Finally, in the end, he skips away and they are left holding the bag. They are left responsible.

    All of these setups appear to “just happen” as if by chance or accident. But it was always planned by the spath, from the beginning to end up the way it did. Well, except for my situation, because I was to end up dead.

  20. Sky, your x reminds me so much of my son Patrick and my biological father, a true psychopath without a descent bone in his body…no conscience and no remorse for the damage done, in fact, ENJOYED the damage.

    You know though, you and I know, and probably the NTSB knows that he killed those men in the helicopter, but there’s no way to prove it in a court of law. Just as the two murders that I KNOW my sperm donor committed were done out of the US and the bodies disappeared. So no way to prove any of it.

    Many offenders get by with murders, rapes, or worse…look at that Castro guy and how long he kept those three women chained as his slaves…and how long Jaycee Dugard was kept captive through trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome) where the lack of abuse is perceived as “kindness.”

    I was talking to a woman today who said “Well, there’s good in everyone.” and I said “BS! that’s not true, there are some people that there is NO good in them, and if they act “nicey” it is only as a cover so they can get close enough to you to hurt you. To mask what they really are.

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