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Grief of the parents of offenders — 24 Comments

  1. There were several more articles about parents of sexual offenders who video taped themselves molesting children….how the parents of these adult sons were devastated by the behavior of their offspring.

    Here is one in the US of a “normal” young man who surprised both his parents and the neighbors in the small community where he lived.

    Mother devastated as 20-year-old son is identified by FBI as John Doe ‘who raped children on video uploaded to the internet from his cell phone’

    Sherrie Nixon of Quitman, Louisiana is reeling after the Monday arrest of her son Chris Nixon on child pornography charges
    ‘I never expected this,’ said Nixon, whose son allegedly recorded a sex act with a 6 to 10 year old using his cell phone before somehow sharing it online
    Chris Nixon was arrested and charged with sexually assaulting at least two victims–a mere four hours after authorities plead to the public for help

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2526212/Mother-devastated-20-year-old-son-revealed-John-Doe-raped-children-video-uploaded-internet.html#ixzz2nx1UIDrX

    Here is another article about a “rock star” whose parents are devout Christians who won’t “give up on” their unrepentant son’s molestation of an 11 month old infant. They keep hoping for rehabilitation, though the prosecution says he will ALWAYS be a high risk for harming children or society.


    Of course this is only the tip of the iceberg of pain experienced by parents of offenders, many whom do not make the front page.

    The apparent trend for people to sexually abuse others and film it and then post it on the internet absolutely astounds me, and yet, my own son, planned a murder, told his buddies about it, did the murder and then told the roommate of the girl he killed that he had killed her. The utter arrogance of this kind of offender who doesn’t even try to hide their abominations still does not make sense to me, it is like that they dont’ consider their actions bad in the first place, and secondly unless someone else appreciates what a rogue they are, it didn’t happen.

    I can see and understand an offender HIDING their crimes, but never have been able to understand flaunting them. But usually that leads to their down fall so I guess that arrogance is counter productive for them to continue to behave badly.

    I feel great sorrow for the parents of these and other offenders who do horrible things, and the parents are devastated beyond belief…whether they accept that their “adult child” is a psychopath or not.

  2. Joyce, the grief of any parent of a criminal cannot be articulated, well enough. Sure, people might feel badly for the parents of these people, but they cannot begin to fathom what these parents experience. There is no helping hand for the parents of these criminals and troubled offspring. There is no supportive community outpouring for these parents. There is no candlelight vigil or clergy visits (with exception of the initial obligatory visit) for these parents. There’s just stone-cold silence and blame. And, it S*U*C*K*S.

    No parent brings forth an offspring into the world and gazes down at their infant’s face and says to the attending obstetrician, “You know, (s)he is going to grow up into a phenomenal serial killer.”

    My heart aches for these parents, and all parents whose children have turned out to be far less than their hopeful expectations.

  3. Which, Truthy, is the very reason that I started this blog…there are lots of “family support” sites for the families of even serial killers, but the sites ALL (unless I missed one) tell the family member to be SUPPORTIVE of the offender, send them mail, commissary money, talk to them on the phone at outrageous collect call charges of which the prison makes money, etc. and no where do they tell the family members, it isn’t your fault, cut the apron strings…

    I personally know the grief of finding out my son is a killer, and hearing the hate in the voice of the detective who called me to “break the news” talking to me like I had killed the girl, Of course I have no doubt that even a hardened detective had every button he had pushed by my arrogant son who i s VERY good at making cops hate him personally.

    I probably should have been hospitalized in a psych unit for a month or more Ii was that crazed and depressed, confused and hurt and nope no one came with condolences. Of course because it was out of state and no one knew I kept the FAMILY SECRET and that was my mistake. to keep the secrets as I had been trained to from birth.

    I think the parents of the boy in Louisiana will have some support from their small community, and the parents of Jackie Walls the prolific child molester had some support but they suffered horribly I am sure. I saw the interviews with the sisters on television and I could tell that they hated Jackie for what he had done, not only to others but to the family. Jackie’s mom was spared the problem as she died before he was arrested, but his dad a good and honest judge locked himself inside his house and never spoke in public again. I am sure he has probably passed on by now but I’m not sure when as I left that town before Jack was arrested.

    I know also that you know what it is like to “lose” a son to psychopathy, and though he hasn’t killed anyone that you know of, you know that you lost the “son” at the least and all the love that you had given him was not returned, plus, you know how he has persecuted and hurt your other son.

    These things are like ripples on the water when a stone is tossed into it…it just keeps spreading outward, never stopping. God bless us all and give us wisdom.

    • Joyce, the “support” groups for family and loved ones of offenders only enables the offenders, IMHO. Why would any offender even WANT to affect changes for themselves when they are supported, forgiven, provided money, etc., and only “pay” for their crimes by living in a structured environment? Of course, living in prison is no cake walk, but it shouldn’t BE a pleasant experience.

      I do have empathy for people who have been incarcerated for minor offenses – they go in for possession of weed (let’s say) and come out with a more intensive education about criminal behaviors.

      For any parent out there who is struggling with the “loss” of their child as a result of that child’s criminal choices and actions, they have choices and options. Just because that criminal is their offspring does not obligate them to tolerate their offspring’s choices, as adults.

      It IS a ripple effect, Joyce. And, the wisdom is hard-won for most of us, and only gleaned after extreme pain and disappointment. It comes when we finally realize that our beautiful infants are gone and that the individual that they developed into is someone that we just cannot fathom.

  4. It isn’t only for the parents of offenders who suffer shame and grief as well…many times the offender is their husband or wife and they live in a community where “everyone knows everyone” and the acts of that offender are known in the community.

    I’ve had many e mails from people who are ashamed to go out in their community because “everyone knows” about the spouse’s criminal behavior and they feel it reflects badly on them.

    I try to reassure them that yes, people do judge us by how our family members behave, but the shame is NOT ours, the grief may be, but the shame belongs to the evil doer, not their family. Even the Bible says that the son should not suffer for the deeds of the father and vice versa.

    But look at much of the world today where whole families are arrested, tortured or killed because of their family relationships with someone else. North Korea is a perfect example of this on a massive scale. On a more personal scale we must deal with it and learn to validate ourselves, pass through the grief, and come out the other side.

    • Joyce, indeed, the ramifications are far-reaching. From immediate family members, to financial institutions, there is a ripple-effect that can literally impact hundreds of lives an businesses.

      For me, the simple validation that what I experienced was “bad” was a tremendous help. Learning how to validate myself was literally “The Most” important thing that I have learned, so far. I’m okay. And, I am not obligated to tolerate anything that is going to cause me harm. This means that enabling and pretending that I “don’t see” is not allowed. LOL

      We are the sole source of our own validations, and learning that we aren’t obligated to please or appease others is one of the facets of that understanding.

  5. Many years ago in the 1970s my husband took on a partner in h is very successful multimillion dollar business and the partner was a CROOK and ended up destroying the business entirely and though my husband went ot court and got the business back, by the time he got it back, it was an empty shell, nothing more than a company name. He never truly got over the ANGER at this or the shame either, though I think he was more ashamed of being conned than anything else. Even when he died in 2004, he still harbored a lot of bitterness.

    Any time we experience a SIGNIFICANT LOSS, be it death, crime, business, ill health, etc. we GRIEVE for that loss (or what we perceived as a loss) and when it is our children that we lose in any manner, be it by death or the child turning out to be an offender without conscience, we grieve that loss. If we don’t come to ACCEPTANCE of that loss though, then we can never heal. We just keep on repeating the steps of grief without the resolution and acceptance.

    Especially when it is a “disappointing” child, society however doesn’t give us a lot of comfort. We are supposed to raise that child up to adhere to community standards and when the child does not adhere too them, we are blamed for failing that.

    Accepting that the adult child or even a teenager has CHOICEs over which we have no control, though, is painful and difficult.

    With kids or adults who are substance abusers many people “blame” the problems in behavior on the substance abuse and think that “if only Johnny hadn’t been on drugs…” But many times the drugs are “self medication” for other problems, including personality disorders.

    I’m counseling a lady now whose 17 year old son is apparently a flowering psychopath, and has been professionally diagnosed as not having a conscience and she is having great difficulty accepting that she isn’t going to reform him, it’s too far down the road at this point in time. I’ve been there and I know you have Truthy as well.

    We may not be able to ‘save” them but we must save ourselves.

  6. Your are so right we can not save them and we can save ourselves.Most people who finely see the big picture and except it for what it is can have nc and move on.In my case it is not that easy because if I did not reply to or acknowledge what little contact I have with my grandsons and keep a line open then I would not be able to live with myself.I have a question though are all pedophiles sociopaths and are all sociopaths pedophiles or is it a sickness of its own?

  7. Distressed Grandmother,
    the names we give the disordered offenders are really more about labeling the behavior. Labels do help us to get a handle on what we are observing, yet at the same time, they can serve to blind us because we “can’t see the forest for the trees.”

    Pedophiles and sociopaths both behave shamefully but they feel no shame. The types of shameful behaviors can vary and that’s probably due more to opportunity and past experience than anything else. I doubt there is a sociopath who wouldn’t rape a child if given the opportunity or motive. I also doubt there is a pedophile who wouldn’t also rob you blind if they thought they’d get away with it.

    The sickness is lack of empathy, the behavior is callous manipulation. How, where and why they implement the behavior is just the details.

  8. Grandmother and sky, I totally agree with what sky answered you. A socio/psycho-path has no shame for the shameful things they do, and which shameful things they do is simply a personal preference. Just like some people like chocolate and some people like vanilla and some people like both vanilla and chocolate, offenders without shame may have a personal preference in “taste” but whatever it is that they want is OK with them because they feel they deserve what they want when they want it, how they want it and the rest of the world be dam-ned.

    Drama of any kind, or “getting away with” something they know is immoral or illegal, gives them a thrill. And thrills, adrenaline rushes, are all the same to them as long as they get a “high” from the “duping delight” that they experience getting away with something they know is “wrong” in the society in which we live.

    What has amazed me lately is how many child rapers take video of the event and post it on line, which ultimately leads to their arrests and prosecutions. With Patrick telling everyone of his friends that he intended to kill Jessica before he killed her and then telling her roommate after he killed her, which sounds INSANE to me….why would he not want to HIDE the murder so he might have gotten away with it? But someone how Patrick and many of the other law breakers seem to WANT an “audience”–almost like their crime isn’t a crime, isn’t a rush or a play unless there is an AUDIENCE to appreciate it. It’s like there isn’t any fun in breaking the law unless there is someone to admire you for it.

    Not all of them display their offenses but many do. In fact, the most successful serial killers do it alone and without telling on themselves, John Wayne Gacy, Jeff Dahmer, Ted Bundy, but many many more it seems want that audience’s approval.

  9. Well I do not think because they brag makes them any better than the ones who do not. They are all very sick people.I would think that those who tell want to get caught because at some level they know they are wrong.I think the ones that do not tell love and except what they are doing, do not want it to stop.To me the ones that do not tell are far more dangerous because they do a lot of damage before they are caught and some are never caught.I have a friend of mine who has a brother in law that murdered a young girl. His story was he ran over her by accident at a party panicked and burned the body. He did not brag about it to anyone but did feel guilty enough to turn himself in.He only spent 9 years in jail stayed his full term because he would not admit to the parole board he was a alcoholic. I have had a hard time believing his story as who when accidents happen go to such great lengths to hide it. When drunk and not thinking properly anything can happen the courts believed it or could not prove otherwise.I think everyone of these peoples minds are different and unless we know them personally we really will not know what goes on in there minds sometimes we can raise these kids and not know what goes on in there minds.I just trust my gut feeling because it is usually right.In my life if people give me the oooh feeling I just stay away. This works well unless they are family then you are stuck to deal with the lose the grief the feeling of defiance.The bottom line though is we really will never know what is going on in there heads and would not believe them if they told us because all trust is gone.Not all killers are sociopaths and not all sociopaths are killers.

    • Grandmother, your statement is true that not all killers are sociopaths, and vice versa. It’s the pattern of behaviors that help us to recognize whether they’re toxic, or not.

      Keeping secrets is, IMHO, just a “symptom” of deeper issues and dynamics. An example of this is that the exspath’s mother ran over a child that was riding a bike, and this child died of the injuries. At one point, the ex-father-in-lost told me this to explain “why” his wife hated God – she had prayed for God to save the child’s life, and “He” didn’t. Well, even the exspath had no idea that this woman had killed a child in a tragic accident, but it was a SECRET that was kept from all of the family members. Of course, this terrible event was ugly, but it was a major event that could have served to “teach” her children about responsibilities, paying attention, and that she was a HUMAN BEING. But, to disclose this event would require this woman to cast away the illusion of her perceived “perfection.” Did she run that child over, deliberately? I don’t believe that she did. Did/does she pretend that she is something that she clearly isn’t? You bet, she does. Is she malicious and manipulative? Oh, indeed. And, she is cruel – cold and terribly cruel.

      Even when it is a family member, there is only the “perception” that we are expected to interact with toxic people, simply because we share DNA with them. DNA does not make “family.” “Family” can be found in people with whom we have no genetic connection, whatsoever. Those people are the ones who support and encourage us, and accept our support and encouragement without having a harmful personal agenda.

      No parent creates a child and rubs their hands together at that child’s birth saying, “I hope this child develops into a manipulative, vicious offender.” We pin our hopes, dreams, and expectations on our children. Even under the healthiest of dynamics, children who have a genetic predisposition to a lack of empathy, conscience, and remorse are what they are. With Mike, my eldest, he carried his father’s genetic disposition for violence and psychopathy, and the dynamics of abuse within our family cemented those traits into another abuser. I don’t “like” it, but I “accept” it. And, I “wish” that I could go back with the knowledge that I have, now, and change things for Mike, but I can’t. I’ve come to “accept” what he is, what his choices have been, and to intentionally avoid him for my own safety.

      “Acceptance” is, by definition, the point where the facts cannot be negotiated, bargained, or altered into anything else – the facts are the facts, and they hold no emotional attachment. “Acceptance” doesn’t require me to “like” or “embrace” the facts. Truth be told, I despise the facts, but I cannot dispute them.

      We will never know what goes on in the minds of the disordered. Even the “professionals” have no understanding of what causes, creates, and develops a toxic individual. They recognize the patterns of behaviors, certainly. But, they cannot say that Y + F + B = normal kid, and Z + R + C = psychopath.

      So, what does that all mean for those of us who have a conscience, empathy, and remorse? It means that, armed with knowledge, understanding, and acceptance, we have options. Some of those options are painful, hurtful, and grievous, but they are options, nevertheless. And, we can move into a space where our choices are based upon self-protection, self-esteem, self-preservation, self-worth, and every other healthy “Self-ism” that exists. I’m working on this, daily, and it’s a challenge, to be sure.

  10. Truthy, you are totally right that DNA does not make “family.” “Family” is based on mutual love, respect and caring, not on DNA. Of course we WANT our children, spouses, friends, to be “family” to us, but it doesn’t work out that way in the case of some of them.

    Many people in my genetic line have been psychopaths…and some were toxic without being purely psychopathic, just high in the traits of dishonesty, and I have painfully eliminated these people from my life, and some of them are deceased so eliminated themselves. I wanted relationships with these people because they shared my genetics…but there comes a point when you have to say to yourself. I have a choice. The choice is to continue to allow this toxic person in my life, or eliminate them from my life.

    I have eliminated them because even though I loved them, I had to come to the conclusion that they were toxic and would continue to be toxic to me. Some were also “friends” that I had known and loved for years, but finally realized that they didn’t love me back, only pretended to care about me so that they could use me. It hurt because my love for them was real, and anyone who loves someone who doesn’t love them back HURTS when that fact is realized. The more you cared for a person who doesn’t love you back, the more it hurts when you realize that.

    I wish that my kids were what I wanted them to be…but the FACT is that they are not. And I wish that the people I considered close friends and “family” cared for me, but they didn’t and that’s a FACT. Some of them from time to time try to ingrate themselves back into my life and back into my sphere in my living history group for example. In that case, I can’t keep away from them but I do avoid them, give them the “potted plant” treatment which is what I call IGNORING THEM like they were just a potted plant. If they speak to me I do not even respond, just keep walking.

    No contact is the ideal, but the potted plant or the gray rock is the next best thing. Do not FEED their desire for attention, or for them to see you react to them. The longer you are out of contact with them the easier it gets, because if you are NC with them they can’t hurt you….and hurting you is what they ENJOY…the “duping delight” they get out of injuring you. Believe me they do not forget you, they are frustrated that they can’t get a reaction out of you…NC is the worst thing you can do to them in the way of “punishment” but it is also the best thing for you because with NC they can’t hurt you any more.

    But NC is also not only not seeing them, not speaking to them, it is getting them OUT OF YOUR HEAD. As long as you keep them in your head through fear or anxiety then they are still wounding you. Getting them out of your head is the most difficult thing and this past year the first part of the year I let Patrick get into my head and I went into the spin cycle of fear and anxiety. Now I have crawled out of the hole I dug for myself by letting him get into my head. I did the parole protest and there is not yet a decision, but I know it is coming soon, and I’m not “worried” about it…it will be what it will be and I will deal with whatever the result is at the time the result becomes final. I can’t change what the result will be, I’ve done all I can do for now. I am determined not to let that hang over my head and make my life miserable worrying about what it will be. I do not intend to let Patrick kill me even if he gets out, I will defend myself and not allow any attack from him be successful. I’ll do what I have to do to keep myself safe.

    • This is very inspiring to see the forgiveness this family has The best part is that they realized that there child was a gift to be returned.It is also very touching that they could so easily forgive.I do wonder though if the killer was still alive and running free if they could have forgiven this easily.Or like Joyce with her son who can offend again if released.I wish I had that power of forgiveness with my offender. I feel if I forgive I will forget and allow my protective wall to go down.Maybe that is what I need to do is forgive to move on.May be I have to look at it like this man and forgive because he was born off balance and knows not what he does.

      • Grandmother, forgiving doesn’t mean you forget…or that you trust them again, in my opinion after studying the story of Joseph forgiving his brothers, I see that when he saw them again, he did not trust them and instantly hug them and tell them who he was, he TESTED them pretty harshly I think, to see just what kind of men they had become since he had seen them some decades before when they sold him as a slave. I had always been told that “forgiving” meant PRETENDING IT NEVER HAPPENED, to allow that person to be trusted again…that never felt right to me…but after reading the story of Joseph, then I realized I didn’t have to FORGET, but to simply get the bitterness out of my own heart. Here is a link to the article about forgiveness and trust that I wrote


        Once I found that what I had been taught was NOT true, that I didn’t have to trust those people again, that I didn’t even have to associate with them again, then it was much easier to get the bitterness out of my heart.

        That bitterness against them will EAT YOU llike a cancer…someone once said that “being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die” and I think those are very astute words because being bitter at someone else can take over your life, but losing that bitterness against them will FREE you from the torture of your soul.

  11. Well I to over the holidays have let them back into my head and have let them eat me up again.Unfortunately what did this was the fact that the one that left home went back for the holidays and maybe for good as school starts tomorrow and he is still not back with his grandfather.The part that got to me my mind was that the so called step father got this child drunk on Vodka at thirteen years old.What eats me up was the fact that there are two reasons he did this one is it is a way to control this child and another is it is a way to get information from this Child and I let it draw me in again to a place I did not like.Unfortunately it s best for me not to know what is going on in these children’s lives at all. There for for me to have any sense of normal in my life It would be best for me to have no contact with my grandchildren what so ever. I can not rust my grandchildren either as they have a master that they to like my daughter sir come to. It was the bullshit that,that man got my oldest Grandson to write down and give to the police that got me in court last time.How do I just turn my back on my grandsons that I love so much and that is what I would have to do for me to have peace of mind but it will not give me peace of heart..I in some my grandson does not come back to his grandfathers because as long as he is at home there will be no contact from him at all as he has not called sent a text or contacted me on face book.I no longer. I do have to let this go was there last year and got reeled back in.I left that town in peace so I thought but some how ended up back at square one.I was dooped.

  12. Grandmother, I read your pain, and I empathize with this – it runs deep, and it’s a dark, dark pain. And, my response is long, so I apologize for taking up so much space, in advance.

    ****Note: my use of CAPS is strictly for emphasis, and is not to be interpreted as “online yelling,” under any circumstances.****

    You asked a direct question, “How do I just turn my back on my grandsons that I love so much and that is what I would have to do for me to have peace of mind but it will not give me peace of heart.” I had to make this choice with regard to my own son, and it was one of the most painful things that I’ve ever done.

    It’s not “turning (your) back” to accept the facts as they are. There may likely come a time when your grandchildren recognize the disorder that they’re involved in, and there may not. You cannot “fix” that disorder. You cannot “save” them. There is nothing that you can do other than to make a decision for yourself. None of the options are pleasant, painless, or easy, by any stretch of the imagination.
    * continue trying to remain involved in their lives and continue suffering
    * stand aside and remain “involved” on a peripheral basis
    * walk away in preparation of a grieving process and begin rebuilding your “Self”

    The first option will, without fail, result in emotional, financial, legal, and spiritual destruction, again and again. It is a “no win” situation for you, personally. The only “winners” in this tragic situation will be the disordered by getting the drama/trauma and control that they lust for.

    Watching and remaining informed of “what’s happening” is still “Contact” and also results in disappointment and anxiety because there is nothing under the Sun that can be done to “save” or “help” anyone.

    The third option is challenging, painful, and is grievous. When I type, “grievous,” that’s precisely what I mean – something to grieve over. It’s not just this man that is involved in the manipulations, deceptions, and betrayals. Your daughter is just as deeply involved and she is a participant, willing or not. Accepting these facts, as they are, is painful – we WANT to save all of the battered and abused children and animals in the world, don’t we? We have compassion and empathy for those who are hurting because we can personally identify with their pain from our own personal traumas that likely began during our own childhoods. Advertising companies are paid very well to develop television ads about abused and neglected children and pets to RAISE FUNDS. But, in due time, this last option will most certainly result in PEACE for your heart and soul – in due time. It may not “feel” like that, right now, because it’s such a deep pain, but I promise you that this is possible with the help of a trauma specialist, and your own hard work.

    The fact is that your daughter and her partner BOTH know, without a doubt, that you are focused on “saving” or “helping” your grandchildren and that focus can be manipulated and twisted to control you, your actions, your decisions, and your own beliefs about yourself. Whether or not your grandson was coerced into writing something dam*ning about you is very, very painful and hurtful. But, it’s a game – it’s about adults rubbing their hands together and devising and executing actions that they know will cause another adult to become upset to the point where the target is living in a constant state of anxiety. That control, Grandmother, is more powerful than any s*e*xual experience – it is o*r*gasmic to them both to know that they can push another human being over the precipice of sanity.

    The grandchildren are the bait. The “possibility” of “saving them” or being granted contact with them is the lure. And, these two very toxic adults have their hands neatly and firmly upon the reel.

    You have the power and control to determine what you will, and will not, tolerate from any human being on this planet, regardless of whom might be directly (and, indirectly) involved. And, our decisions and choices do not need to be made in anger – of course, FEELING angry is normal, natural, and “okay” as long as it doesn’t develop into blind rage. FEELINGS are real. They are “normal” responses. But, those feelings can be managed and processed in such a way that we can make our decisions based upon the facts at hand, and not out of fear.

    During the separation from the second exspath, I received a phone call from a Bankruptcy Attorney that the exspath had hired. He (the attorney) was trying to encourage me to file JOINT bankruptcy with a man who had coerced me out of (and, literally stole) over 1/4 million dollars of my private investments. I fell in to an all-out panic, Grandmother. My house was already in foreclosure because the dipsh*t had stopped paying the mortgage so that he could spend that money on his BDS&M gatherings, instead. I had lost my transportation, and I had made a very difficult decision to relocate to an unheated shack instead of surrendering my pets and entering into a homeless shelter – I was OUT OF MY MIND in a full-blown panic. After a couple of days of panic and speaking to Joyce, and others about this situation, I realized that a JOINT bankruptcy would make ME responsible for HIS debts that I never even knew about. And, that gave ME THE POWER. I had a choice – go along with the bankruptcy and assume that *sshole’s financial irresponsible actions, or say, “No,” and move along with my life.

    FEAR has been a driving factor for me for just about my entire life, Grandmother, and that dreadful fear was formed during my childhood of dysfunction and a lifetime of traumas. I have made the choice to work on those facts, put them into perspective, and work on the traumas. I don’t “like” that I’m a fear-based person, but it’s what it is, and I cannot bargain these facts into something more pleasant.

    So, loving your grandchildren in your heart without being directly involved in the drama/trauma is not only possible, but it will (in due time and with a trauma specialist) be liberating, empowering, and PEACEFUL……..in due time.

    MORE HUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Thank you for the advice! I think it will take me a while to get to the third choice I am lingering at the time in between the third and the second choice.Other than your choices on this site the rest of the world thinks I need to leave a opening for the children especially the one that is in the same state I was in the beginning but with I hope a bit more versatility.Like Joyce said I would have to be very careful because I am not sure The oldest plays both side to what he thinks they would like to hear and on the other hand he is the most heart felt kid that does not want to hurt anyone but gets caught in the middle. Although some times I want to talk to him about what is going on and I do not because I know in the long run it will hurt us both but then again at least he would not have to make things up to please his master.I know it is not my burden to bare and I can not save these boy’s but I can carry them for the moment when they do phone upset and wanting to cry on someones shoulder. Maybe they are playing me to. This I do not know they are children not given a chance they had there world stole from him.There Grandparents, mother,brothers, cousins ext. They did not give them up they were stole from them. How do you closes the door on that.I have lost, I have grieved and I have excepted it is what it is and there is nothing I can do about it.I fell off the wagon and allow this guy back into my brain over the holidays and this spring under false hope.this spring and over Christmas because he got my grandson drunk.I let the wrath of fear back into my mind not ever wanting to live what I have gone through again. I am feeling a lot stronger again and have been working on my fear.It will take one heck of a specialist to help me let go of my grandsons until I know that they are willingly at eighteen helping to destroy there family then I will know it is to much to late to be there for them when they come calling.I pray that never happens,but then I can deal with the last choice.I know the last choice is the best choice for me but I do not believe it is the best choice for them.Me trying to be involved in there life I have learned the hard way is disaster.I have to admit though if I get a call or a text I will very cautiously answer and let them know as I have already to go to there mother she is the only one who can fix this it is beyond my control but if you wish to vent grandma can listen and that is what you all are doing for me right now and I very much appreciate your listening and helping me through this because it is working.I have him out of my head again for how long I hope forever but I do not think so because I choose not to close the doors on my grandsons if they call.I will not look for trouble but if it comes knocking on my door I will try my best to deal with it. I am going to become fearless and learn to deal with things when they happen.I to have had enough of the lies and betrayal.I no longer morn for my daughter. I do not feel I mourn for my grandsons anymore either and believe me I have. That was the hardest thing One never should have to go through the mourning of the living well they walked by you like they do not know you.I have lost my father my mother my sister my granddaughter and most of all my mother. All these loses together will never add up to the loss of the living. It is the most painful lose of them all. I am not ready to shut the door completely until I know my grandsons have there freedom and knowledge to make there own choices.I will not carry there burdens but will try when the time is right to pick up the peaces and sort them out. Then if I have to I will take the last step.If I told you any different I would only be lying to you and to myself.Please always be there for me because you do have great advice Thank you!

      • Grandmother, you “sound” resolved and strong, and that’s wonderful to read.

        Keep reminding yourself that most options in dealing with the disordered are not pleasant, easy, or painless. Knowing that this is a fact can be very helpful when we are facing decisions that seem drastic or beyond our ability/willingness to make. The disordered take away our options in a way that empathetic people don’t.

        Yes, vent, rant, rave, and do whatever you need to do take care of yourself.

  13. Grandmother, I think Truthy has given you some good advice. I KNOW and she KNOWS how difficult it is to “let go” of someone we love…Truthy has had to let go of her oldest son. I have had to let go of BOTH my biiological sons, Patrick is a psychopath, and though Andrew is not a psychopath, he is dishonest and disloyal…it took me a long time to realize that it wasn’t his psychopathic wife that was the problem, it was BOTH of them. He was “loyal” to her against me, but it was because he really didn’t “need” or want me unless he was in trouble and needed me to bail him out. HE “blamed” their financial problems on her, but in fact, it was as much him as it was her. He spent every dime he could lay hands on, even if it meant letting the bills go, to buy video games to fuel his addiction to them.

    When I finally set some BOUNDARIES for him about living in my home, and he agreed to the terms…1/3 of his take home for room and board, and 1/3 to pay his expenses of car payment, insurance, clothing, etc., and 1/3 to be SAVED for emergencies….he did well for a while but when he got a NICE nest egg,, he spent every dime of it on a new computer for his video games, and then LIED TO ME ABOUT IT. Well, you know….that was the LAST LIE. I told him he had to leave my house. Well, he HAD NO MONEY to find a place to live because he had spent it all on the computer…so, he went and LIED to some of his friends and his boss and told them I had “thrown him out in the middle of the night” when in fact,, I had given him 30 days to leave. So now, the ONLY contact I have with him is via e mail and the only subject we discuss is his brother’s parole because we need to work together to keep Patrick in prison, and if my mother passes away we have to work together to keep money from her estate out of Patrick’s hands if we can.

    At first I was CRUSHED by his lies to me that last time…but then I began to look back at his life as a teenager and as an adult and I realized he had been disloyal to me MANY MANY TIMES, kept secrets from me about his brother’s criminal acts, and did not warn me when the entire family was trying to run me out of my home, and Hamilton was using my credit card, and had control of my phone account….he knew they were doing bad things to me but he didnt’ care enough about me to even warn me what was going on. He isn’t a total psychopath but he is NOT loyal and loving and will lie to me to cover up breaking agreements.

    I know you would like to think your daughter is being influenced by her husband, but the hard fact is that you yourself said she was a SELFISH person before she met him, and that she treated you with disrespect before this man. Of course now that she has him she may be WORSE, just like my son was when he was married to the psychopath, but it was NOT ONLY HIS WIFE,, but the BOTH of them together, and he was just as much involved both before and after he married her with disrespecting me…with covering up for his brother’s criminal acts. So I FINALLY recognized that FACT though it hurt very very much. I cried for weeks. But now that I realize what he is, that he is not the kind of man I wish he was, I have ACCEPTED the facts. they are not what I want, but they are what they ARE.

    Your daughter is, I think, just as involved in this of HER OWN FREE WILL and her own rage at you as her sociopathic man. And of course the BIGGEST WEAPON that she has to hurt you with is the kids, and that is what she is going to use because she knows that will hurt you the most.

    What can you do about that? UNFORTUNATELY NOTHING to change the situation.

    What can you do about your own hurt? ACCEPT it for what it is, accept that you can NOT change it. Yep, that will be VERY PAINFUL, but many times the FACTS are very PAINFUL.

    The kids may grow up to be just like her….genetics plays a part in it, and so does environment, so just as Truthy’s son grew up to be a psychopath like his father, and my son Patrick grew up to be just like my father and the other psychopaths in my family, I’ve had to accept that neither of my sons that I loved so much can be part of my life. One willl hurt me or see me hurt and will not be loyal,, the other one would killl me if he could. I had dreams and aspirations for their lives as adults, and all those aspirations are never going to come true. I could not save them from themselves no matter what I did because they did NOT want to be “saved.”

    Your grandchildren may become good men and they may be just like their mother, but that is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. The 13 year old hopefully will continue to live with his other grandfather and maybe he will be okay out of the house with the sociopath and his twisted mother,, but he may become just like her. He is going to be what HE wants to be and what his environment and his DNA makes him.

    A friend of mine years ago had the MOST HORRIBLE MOTHER YOU CAN IMAGINE, and I likened the woman to a sow that eats her own piglets because she was that way. One son was just like her…the son I was friends with was probably one of the MOST HONEST, KIND, CARING, LOVING individual you can imagine. The woman he married and had children with though, was just like his mother. He finally got custody of his daughter at age 7 and his son at age 3 or 4, and raised them with love and caring, but unfortunately both of his children became just like their own mother and like his mother, true psychopaths. It crushed him, but he let them go. He married a loving woman and helped her raise her kids. I know it broke his heart that his daughter and son were by early teens already fully functional psychopaths. This man had little education and he wasn’t the smartest guy in the room, but he made up for any lack of education and smarts by ACCEPTING what was REAL even though it was not what he wanted.

    Even though I had an education about psychology, and I recognized that my sons were not the kind of men I wanted them to be, it took me DECADES to come to acceptance. So you know it isn’t about what we know, or how much we learn about psychopaths, it is the ACCEPTING what IS and to quit grieving over what is NOT.

    Back when I was providing medical care to the women and children in the domestic violence shelter, I actually felt “superior” to these women who had gone back to a psychopath over and over and I thought to myself “I would never go back to a man who had broken my arm…” but I was at that time still allowing my sons to abuse me, so in fact, I was NO better than those women were. It wasn’t my husband who was abusing me, but I was being abused by my sons, but I didn’t see that I was JUST LIKE THESE WOMEN who went back and went back. I finally realized that I was lilke these women and I finally accepted that I had allowed the aabuse to continue.

    NO CONTACT is a good place to start, but MENTAL NO CONTACT is also necessary or physical no contact won’t do us any good. I allowed the preparation for Patrick’s parole protest to send me into a tail spin, I allowed MENTAL CONTACT to suck me back into the fear and anxiety. It took me six months of being in the spin cycle mentally to realize I was KILLING MYSELF with mental contact. I was physically ill because of it, because severe stress and anxiety and fear will actually kill your body, your brain, your thinking, and put you in an early grave. STRESS KILLS.

    It may take a good trauma specialist therapist, and definitely one who believes you, to get you to a point that you can have MENTAL NO CONTACT and that you can let go of the entire situation. Not forget about it, but quit letting it make you “crazy” with anxiety and fear over something you can not change.

    TIME is on your side though with your grandkids and there may come a point that one or more of them will see what his mother is and then you will be able to have contact with that grandchild or children…they won’t always be under the control of their mother we can hope, but win, lose or draw, the ONLY way that YOU can have peace is to make peace with the fact that this whole thing is out of your control, accept that fact though it is a disappointment of huge proportions.

    I keep the good memories of Patrick as a young child, he was a wonderful little kid…but the MAN he became is a monster, I don’t know that man, and that man is NOT my son, the wonderful little boy “died” when he was about 13 or 14…with Andrew, he was a fun little kid and I loved him so much,, but the man he has become is not my friend. So I keep the good memories alive, just like I keep the good memories of my late husband, and though he is dead, we still have our memories, but I ACCEPT that all these relationships are no longer “alive.” If Ii continually grieve over the loss of the current relationship, then I would be in constant pain, but by ACCEPTING that those relationships are in the PAST, I can h ave a good life in the NOW for myself.

    It won’t be easy Grandmother, but it is POSSIBLE. Healing is a journey and sometimes we get off on the wrong track and have to go back and find the path, but if we keep working on it, the road gets smoother and the journey is definitely worth it.

    • Joyce, whenever you discuss your loss of Patrick, it pierces me to the bone because I completely identify with your grieving.

      I’ve written this, before, by Mike was an unusually beautiful baby and child, and he was very bright. But, the adult that he developed into isn’t that beautiful infant, anymore. And, “letting go” isn’t a pleasant or easy choice, but it’s the ONLY one that saved me from myself. My desire to “fix” things, or to do a “better” job than I did was only being used as one of many tools to hurt me.

      Grandmother, as Joyce wrote, healing is possible. No matter what the trauma is, recovery and healing are possible. And, the acceptance of our own personal limitations is one of the first important steps that we can take. We do not have the power or control to fix or save anyone, particularly anyone who is disordered. Regardless of what label might apply, toxic is toxic.

      We know that chlorine in bleach products is toxic. Therefore, we do not intentionally ingest it. We also know that too much sodium in our food is toxic, and many of us try to avoid eating specific foods that contain too much salt. Many people have developed an intolerance to gluten, and eating processed breads, rolls, and pastas cause them extreme toxic reactions. The same goes forth with human beings. Some human beings are simply toxic and cause us harm – financially, emotionally, physically, spiritually, and on every other level. We have options, here – eat the gluten and experience the agony; allow the toxic person into our heads, and experience the agony. The outcome never changes because the toxins are toxins, and cannot be negotiated into something better.

      Yes, the journey is SO worth the effort, even the tough spots. I’ve made the ironic choice to believe that the tough spots are opportunities for me to experience personal growth, even though I really, REALLY do not like them. But, after all is said and done, and I’ve managed to overcome another obstacle, it’s simply amazing.

  14. Good morning, Grandmother. “Letting go” of the pain and grief and fear doesn’t mean you have to quit loving your grandchildren….it simply means that you love them FROM A DISTANCE. If they contact you, you LISTEN to to what they have to say and you respond carefully so it doesn’t bite you in the behind later. You let them know that you love them.

    When they are past 18 then you can be more honest and open with them. In the meantime, realizing and ACCEPTING that you have little or NO control over what your daughter does to them and that the kids themselves may have been trained to lie etc and to toady to this jerk and their mother in order to survive. Abused kids figure out how to “suck up” to the abusers to try to prevent the abuse.

    I realize that it is going to be DIFFICULT to stop the spin cycle of anxiety, fear, grief, and frustration because you do love these kids. Loving them is a good thing, but allowing it to eat you alive is NOT a good thing. You have to find a balance there.

    Letting go of the grief over your daughter, reaching acceptance of what she is and that she is not going to change, that she is toxic, and simply mean and filled with rage against you and desires to hurt you, to humiliate you if she can and that she is willing to use the kids to hurt you…I know that hurt, but eventually you recover once you “let go” and trust God to take care of them. which I believe He WILL do so.

    You can continue to love your grandchildren while accepting that they are in a less than ideal living situation. You can be there for them if they call..to listen to them, and to reassure them that “grandmother loves you” and that “you won’t always have to live with your mother and the jerk, you will be 18 before too long, and I know that sounds like a long way away but when you get there then YOU can decide where you want to live and who you want to visit with.” Just reassure them that they have someone who loves them no matter what.

    If they turn out to be like their mother, you may want to distance yourself from them like I do with my son Andrew. I don’t fear him, I don’t hate him, I actually love him, but I ACCEPT that that love, respect, etc. isn’t returned by him. Patrick on the other hand HATES me…and would see me dead if he can arrange it. Patrick I feel no love for, I pray for him because the Bible tells me to pray for those who persecute you. I do my best to get the bitterness out of my heart toward him and keep it out. Not for him, but for ME because if I dwell on the bitterness and feel bitter, it EAST ME like a cancer, so I have too NOT feed that bitterness.

    Grandmother, none of us are telling you to quit loving and caring about your grandkids, just that you can’t let that care and love EAT you on things you cannot control. The time will come that those kids will be no longer under the influence of their mother and the jerk, so time is on your side

  15. DGma- I’m not sure if this will help or not, but one thing that has pulled me out of this slump was this. Come judgment day, You will not be the one to atone for their actions. They will pay for the things they have done. You will not be the one to stand before the maker and take the punishment handed down for their actions. Plain and simple.

    I also realize that you may not be ready or able to forgive them for the things they have done. It’s not easy and I struggle with it myself. I will also admit, I am not there yet either. But as Joyce prays for her sons, I pray for my spath, as he is a sick person too. I pray much the same as if he had the flu, cancer or addiction issues. They are sick and we pray for the sick, but in this case we know they are not to be healed. We can still pray for them, pray they cause no further harm, pray they keep their distance and pray they just get on with life in another direction.

    I prayed for my spath and for myself. I prayed and pretty much threw it all in Gods lap. “Here you go God, You can have him back. You created this mess, if there’s anyone who can fix it, You can! You know why he is the way he is, who should know better than You, Where it all went wrong, Why and How? If you, God, wants the marriage to last, then You had better do something about it, because at this point-> I’m done. I can’t change him and I don’t know why I ever thought I could.”

    When you finally reach the point of forgiveness, you do not have to forget what they have done or the hurt they caused. You know the path of destruction they leave behind them wherever they go. You know they thrive on disruption, destroyed trust and the surrounding darkness. You know they will play on your sympathies and throw the victim card every chance they get. They will try their d*mnedest best to weasel their way back in. If you look at how sad and pathetic it really is on their part, it becomes easier to let it all go and just walk away.

    And while Truthy, Sky, Joyce, Bluejay, myself and so many others have been down that road, our words of love, encouragement and support are all the same. Sometimes it comes from hearing those words in a different perspective that they suddenly make perfect sense. You will get there someday too DGrandma. You will find peace within and be at peace with your choices on how to proceed from here.

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