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Guest post by Truthspeak — 27 Comments

  1. Truthy you have NAILED IT in this article. I agree 110% about bitterness and and the desire for Vengeance. I’ve had a pretty devastating session with it myself.

    About a year after the plane crash that killed my husband and severely burned three others, my neighbor in whose pasture the plane crashed sued me for $50,000 for HIS suffering at seeing the crash…he needed money to make him feel better. LOL

    This is a man who bought 30 acres across the road from me and not a “local” and is known locally as “Crazy Bob” I would lie awake at night in my bed and plot how I would get even with him for that law suit (which BTW he totally LOST) This desire for vengeance went on for months until one day I realized that I was becoming just like him. In fact, I figured out why he did it (besides greed) was that when he had arrived at the crash site wanting to be the center of attention I had very loudly and rudely told him to get away and quit interfering with the rescue operations. I am sure it must have embarrassed him so his suit was seeking vengeance against me embarrassing him.

    During the time before I realized what the bitterness and desire for vengeance was doing to ME it was my entire focus.

    I have not found a single “command” in the Bible that is hurtful to us, and “Vengeance is mine” is definitely one of those commands that is for OUR benefit. “Forgiving” those who hurt us does not to me mean continue to have a relationship with those people, it simply means I think to quit focusing on the bitterness and the vengeance we might like to apply to them. That bitterness eats away at US, and as has been said before “bitterness is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.”

    GREAT ARTICLE, Truthy, thanks very much!

    • Thanks, Joyce – it was helpful to me to write about this subject.

      I’ve come to a point where vengeance is not my business. Neither is karma. The Universe keeps things in a balance, even if it isn’t the way that I want it to be balanced! LOL!!! So………..yeah……..

  2. Truthy, having myself experienced this same desire for vengence in situations where legal justice is not available I can so relate. I also realize just HOW TOXIC to ourselves these feelings are.

    Research has shown that the desire for revenge actually releases “feel good” hormones in our brains so the desire for revenge is a natural and normal part of being human, but it is one that can be TOXIC if held on to for a long time or if “fed” and “nurtured” so while the initial desire for revenge may be normal, we cannot let it get fed and nurtured, but we need to dampen it down and not continue to let it become poison to ourselves.

    • Even without research data, why would a human being who has been betrayed and harmed (in ANY form) NOT entertain thoughts of vengeance? It’s a “normal” feeling to want to pay someone back for what they did.

      For me, I knew that it would become a crippling obsession if I kept entertaining the ideations. In fact, there were times when I really considered formulating “A Plan” to pay BOTH exspaths back. And, I chose not to act upon this thought to plan something out. I know that making a plan might obligate me to following through with it because of the time and energy that had been invested in the endeavor! LMAO!! I wouldn’t want to “waste” all of that energy, then, right?!

  3. For some reason, I had a really hard time getting thru this article. I would start reading and get distracted or pulled away. Almost like something was keeping me from it… lol

    Sure we all want vengeance on some level. We want to feel that things have been justified for what was done to us, that it wasn’t in vain. But as far as the Universal Balance, Karma, Buddha, God and the Powers that be…. just like Truthy said, you don’t want to wish ill on someone because it will come back around. Usually biting you in the arse at least threefold of what your ‘target’ received.

    But there are creative ways you can ask for the person to get their just deserves.
    Ask and ye shall receive….

    • Phoenix, LOL!!! “Creative ways….”

      My views on this subject have gone full-circle, sort of. Or……half-circle. Whatever. But, I used to believe that I deserved vengeance. I didn’t deserve love, self-care, compassion, or balance, but vengeance? Oh, yeah………

      Now, those thoughts pass through my mind, from time to time, but I truly believe that a person is going to set up their own system of rewards and consequences by their own actions. Even if they never recognize that their own actions brought them to where they find themselves, it’s how it works in the end.

      I think, a year ago, I first began to consider this as a fact while I was listening to a former friend who was bemoaning her Life’s Path. I’ve mentioned this gal in numerous posts, but (in a nutshell) she made some REALLY poor choices and they were pretty self-serving as choices went. She married a man whom she did not love or care about because she was being evicted from her apartment. She had a child by this man and then divorced him. He IS a jerk, to be sure, but anyway……. Then, she hooked up with a serious psychopathic man whom she strung along for about a decade by paying HIS way through life, buying HIM a place to live with her inheritance, and so forth. She finally had him move into her outrageously expensive home after her alimony ended – this place was way above her means, but she “won” this property in her divorce, had to buy out her ex’s interest, and refinanced the property about 5 different times. THEN………this boyfiend moves in and pays the mortgage with his disability income, and he is very, very verbally and emotionally abusive. She had planned on “using” him to pay the mortgage until she finished her medical certification, and her son (in college, by then) was complaining about the abuse. Her response was, “Hold on a little longer. Once I graduate, I’ll kick him out…”

      Well, before she graduated, she had to file for a restraining order. Then, her son moved out with his girlfriend. So, this woman was left with a $2100 monthly deficit, and DID NOT get hired, immediately after graduation because she is older and has absolutely NO experience in her field.

      What does all of that have to do with vengeance and “karma” (or, whatever you want to call it)? Just this – most of this gal’s decisions and actions involved manipulating and USING people to her advantage – to get HER wants attended to, even throwing her son under the bus to use this psychopathic man. Now, at last communication, she was still working for $10 per hour, unable to pay her mortgage, had declared bankruptcy, and was just not “getting it” that she had lived above and beyond her means.

      So………………………(whew)………….through her OWN actions, her life unraveled at 55, and I have no idea what became of her because I finally ended the friendship after she took out her rage and fury on me for the final time. I don’t wish her ill, by any means, but she’s pretty much made her own thorny bed that she has to either lie down in or change, herself, by standing accountable for her own choices and actions.

      Yep……….the desire to see vengeance is “normal.”

      • Yes Truthy, creative ways…. Perspective is a wonderful thing.

        While we may not want to wish bad things for someone, we CAN wish for them to get what they deserve. We can also wish that they go away.

        For a person to “Go away”, it could mean many different things. They could move somewhere else. Somewhere far enough away we aren’t bothered by them anymore. Maybe they got a job offer, maybe there was a health problem with a family member. Who are we to argue and what do we care? They could go on a trip and never return. Maybe they like the place so much they decide to stay. Good for them, good for us. They went away.

        I have also found it interesting to let the ‘powers that be’ have a bit of fun with things. I might ask for a person to stop bothering me. I might ask that they get what they truly deserve. But I will also let the ‘powers that be’ come up with their own way of making this happen. Believe you me, they have always delivered, far and away, things that are better than anything I could have ever dreamt up. Give them a little free rein in this area and you will not be disappointed.

        • Phoenix, I agree that the “powers that be” are far more creative and final than I could ever imagine being, myself. LOL!!!

          I have, indeed, wished ill upon the exspath. I have painted various scenarios in my head as to how he will suffer. I’ve also indulged those thoughts to the point where I had become toxic to myself, and others. I believe that the balance came through counseling therapy – for me, it was a matter of getting it out in a safe and healthy manner, and rebuilding or even just constructing what had either been damaged or had never existed for me, personally.

          “…and what do we care?” THAT could be the most core principal of the whole idea because those people certainly aren’t giving us a nanosecond of their thoughts. I never understood that caring was a choice – an option. I had always believed that caring about everything was an obligation, be it “good, bad, or neutral.” And, that included caring about the past.

          What a wonderful place “today” is without that past tapping me on the shoulder and saying, “HEY! Aren’t you going to get p*ssed off, again, today?”

          • The last part about the past tapping you on the shoulder and asking if you’re going to be p*ssed off today? For some reason that just strikes me funny and made me LOL. Thank you for that!!!

            No they don’t give a rats arse what happens in our lives, unless of course it somehow has an affect on theirs. And it could be a good affect or outcome FOR THEM and in their favor, but somehow they would still twist it around to play the ‘Victim” card. Lord don’t we know that they have a full deck and then some of those ‘Victim’ cards…. ROFL!

        • Phoenix, I’m glad that you found the humor! And, you’re 100% spot-on that, regardless of the outcome, predatory people will twist and distort whatever it is to have a pitiful card to play.

          I do not envy them their dark, empty, lonely, and cold worlds…………

  4. Taking “revenge” is like if someone hurts you, you tell lies on them, up to an including burning down their house. My ex BF after my husband died did just that, burned his former girl friend’s house down. There is no “proof” that would hold up in court, but she knows it and so do I. And others as well. I made sure that he knew that if MY house burned, even if I saw lightening strike it and set it on fire that my sons Andrew and Michael would “get him”

    I was actually lying to the man as I would NOT have let my sons take the law into their own hands. The ex BF DID get even with me in a way that was troublesome, but at least my house didn’t burn. Then he called me in the middle of the night to GLOAT about it. I was at a living history camp out and was in bed asleep when the phone rang and I didn’t have my glasses on to see who it was so I answered the phone and when I realized it was him, I SCREAMED, waking up a bunch of my friends camping close. The next morning I told them why I had screamed (and worse, it was a “bad word”) LOL But yea, I have felt the bitter desire to kill a neighbor for suing me for $50 K because my husband’s plane crashed in his pasture and upset him and he needed money to make him feel better. LOL I truly wanted to kill him. But I FINALLY realized that like Truthy’s ex-friend that he is HIS OWN WORST ENEMY. Everyone in the entire community despises him, and at the time a very respectable male friend of mine offered to kill him for me! LOL In a small community people know what and who you are. He’s been here in this community about 18 years now and there is not a neighbor who would urinate on him if he were on fire. And frankly that’s a sad way for someone to live.

    I realized that my bitterness was EATING ME! Not him.

    Some people seem to think that turning in an offender for a crime is “revenge” but it isn’t it is JUSTICE. As citizens we SHOULD report a crime if we know who did it, and I’m not the ONLY parent in the world who has done so. I just read an article today about Josh Duggar that was finally outed as a molester years after the offense, they had covered it up, and the cop who got the report covered it up, a judge even covered it up by having the original documents destroyed ..but now….he got caught in this Madison Ashley cheating site scandal. Once a perve always a perve in my opinion. So, yea, Karma does catch up to some of them, but you know, sometimes the offender gets away “scot free” without being exposed or prosecuted, but just think what EMPTY lives they live without a conscience.

    Also it was interesting that his wife was taking “some of the blame” for his cheating because she apparently didn’t give him the kind of sex he wanted or enough of it. The poor woman is so brainwashed she blames herself for HIS bad acts. Boy is that a familiar feeling for those of us recovering enablers.

    • Joyce, I am in 100% agreement that turning in an offender is justice. I know that some people have turned in criminals as a matter of vengeance and bitterness AFTER they harbored someone or tried to “help” them.

      That’s one of the things that I have a challenge accepting is that people will actively assist an offender – and, I don’t mean putting money in their commissary account. I mean that they hide evidence, the offender’s whereabouts, etc…….and, when the offender double-crosses THEM, they have the actual audacity to be outraged and turn them in to “show them!’ LOL!!! It’s comical on a very tragic level because the enablers are in the belief (as I was) that, if they HELP the disordered, somehow that care and concern is going to be RETURNED and there will be a different outcome, this time.

      With the Duggars, look at what THEIR enabling and secret-keeping got for THEM! They no longer have zillions in commercial dollars coming in, they’ve all but put themselves into bankruptcy, etc…….Their reputations have been destroyed and they are now social pariahs. I always had my intense dislike of their lifestyle because, in this day and age, there is absolutely NO reason to produce that number of children – there is no farm to tend to or royal title to pass along. It seemed WAY out of the “norm” because asking the mother to continue reproducing seemed barbaric to me.

      As for taking the blame for a cheating spouse, I experienced that for a nano-second when I discovered what the second exspath was. I think that, at this point in time, the woman simply feels ashamed and dirty given the whole public exposure of the crumbling facade. The masks have fallen and shattered, and NOTHING will ever repair them.

      Personally, I don’t ever think there’s such a thing as getting off without some sort of consequences. I may never see or know about the karma that catches up with the exspath, but nobody can go about doing the things that he does without there being some sort of consequences. Perhaps, he’ll be engaged in one of his violent group activities in Philly and someone ends up being killed. Perhaps, he’ll pick up a nasty STD, face another divorce, and face civil action BECAUSE he passed it on to his spouse. Perhaps, he’ll end up cheating with the wrong person, and end up being killed. I don’t know WHAT will happen to him, but I truly believe that people who deliberately do wrong and cause harm for their own entertainment and purposes ALWAYS end up paying the piper. 😉

      • Truthy, talking about “hiding evidence” in a case, the Boston Marathon bombing comes to mind. The fellow students of one of the bombers, went to his room and took his computer and other evidence that he was involved in the bombing and hid them. WHAT is that? Also read a story today about a woman in Dallas who was arrested for driving an killer who shot and killed a 35 year old dentist. She BORROWED a car from a friend and took $500 to drive this man to the spot he killed the woman, he jumped out and shot her, got back in and the two drove away—all on video of course, plus the person who owned the vehicle called in and reported it to the police and who he had loaned it to….now that young woman will probably spend the majority of her life behind bars. She told the police that the man said he was ONLY GOING TO ROB THE WOMAN and she didn’t know anything about his intention to kill her until he shot her.

        ONLY GOING TO ROB HER????? ONLY Rob? What is this when it is okay to “ONLY rob someone”?

        I’m glad that they will get this man, whoever he is, but I am sad too that this young woman was so callous that she somehow thought it was okay to ONLY ROB someone.

        • “Only rob…” Sheeeyit, that’s pathetic. But, Joyce……..I think that’s where we’re heading. Even in school, when a kid does something terrible, “They were only goofing off.”

          Personally, I am SO grateful that I’m not trying to raise children in our current social climate, and I’m even more grateful that I’m not a kid growing up in this mess.

          “Only rob?” That’s sort of what the second exspath did……..for 14 years……set me up to “only rob” me of my own finances. Consequences? None.

          (sigh)…………I try to avoid reading the news because I am reminded of my powerlessness where the collapse of our society is concerned. More often than not, I’m finding myself grateful to be living away from the insanity. I had contemplated moving to the city, but Bob’s going to be driving, soon, and I have a car that’s excellent on gas. Gang shootings and random violence are happening at such a pace that there is NO way that investigators can work all of these cases, successfully. So, I’m looking about in my current area for a BETTER place that sees sunshine a little more. 😉

  5. Truthy, if not in THIS life, I believe there is a judge to face on the other side of life. But even in this earthly life I know that people without a conscience do not live a “full” and satisfying life.

    • Joyce, right – a “full” or “satisfying” life is unattainable for spaths because there’s NEVER enough for whatever they crave or want. It’s a sad, empty, dark, and very cold Universe for them.

  6. The thing is though, even though we know what it is to love and be loved and they don’t, I think they don’t realize what they are missing. It’s kind of like my dog likes to chew on STINKY things that almost make me puke but she loves them….and even though her sense of smell is 1 million times better than mine, she is not disgusted by those smells and she will bring me such a stinking toy and give it to me, not realizing I don’t relish it like she does, she just doesn’t get it why I don’t want her beloved stinking object. I can never no matter how hard I try learn to think like a dog any more than she can think like me, and I think that’s the way it is with psychopaths, they just don’t “get” what it is we have that they don’t.

    • Joyce, 100% spot-on!! And, they despise whatever it is that they don’t have knowledge about – like seriously unconditional love or romantic love. Or, love for anything!

      My vulnerabilities – my sense of “family,” spiritual core, love of Nature, and all of the other precious things that are mine, alone – were targeted and systematically demolished by spaths because they could NEVER have those things, themselves. So, what they cannot and will not have (EVER), they hold in contempt and target for destruction.

  7. I have long held the belief that a psychopath’s proclivity for infidelity is because they “know” that we get something out of sex besides physical gratification, and they aren’t sure WHAT it is but they think if they try one more partner they may find it. For those people who I think are psychopathic, like Bill Cosby, who are accused of multiple rapes, they may “get off on” humiliating and tricking others for sex, a power trip in other words.

    The breaking laws (of both man and God) just for the “fun” of doing something and getting away with it also seems to be a pattern as well. The lack of fear of any consequences also comes into play where they are concerned I think. I’ve read where that some psychopaths even “enjoy” prison because there are so many rules for them to break and get away with. Patrick doesn’t seem to have any fear of going to prison even after his first 2 year stint for aggravated robbery.

    • Joyce, it’s just nuts that anyone would actually DEFEND the drugging and sexual assault of anyone as being the victims’ faults!

      Cosby is just another example of that audacious mind-set of the psychopath, “I just don’t care. Prison? I’m not going to prison – I did what anyone would have done, and it was always with her consent.” Really!? LMAO!!!!! How audacious IS that?

      In the Universe Of Psychopaths, “rules” are simply optional.

      • Oh, and the ones that end up as career prisoners tend to LIKE prison, from what I can gather. There’s the structured environment, but there’s the game-playing with OTHER psychopaths that is so intriguing to them.

        Did you ever see that movie, “The Onion Field,” where two criminals are committing robberies and car thefts, and the one lies on the witness stand to send the other to the gas chamber? Well, the one that lied held SO much perceived power in prison – he became one of those prison attorneys and this gave him the respect and accolades that he would NEVER have earned outside of prison walls.

        Very, very disordered people living such delusional lives……….

      • In the Universe Of Psychopaths, “rules” are simply optional.

        Sounds like you know my ex-FIL….

        “Rules are not only optional, they either don’t apply to me at all or I can change them as we go. All to suit ME of course!”

        Geeee… I wonder where the exspath gets his sense of entitlement from? I’m sooooo glad to be DONE with all of them. His mother isn’t looking so good. I honestly doubt she’ll be much longer for this world.

  8. If I saw that movie I don’t remember it, but the name is familiar, just not the plot. But yea, Patrick is a ‘big deal” (at least he THINKS so) in prison. He loves the plots and plans as his letters to Hamilton and others show. He actually thinks he is a SUCCESSFUL person. LOL And when you think about that, it is laughable, as NO ONE except a full on psychopath would think themselves SUCCESSFUL, but in associating with people who are intellectually way below him, and educationally below him, he feels “successful” and “one-up” from them.

    It’s pathetic really, but goes to show that psychopaths just don’t “get it” and their grandiosity and narcissism is unlimited. How can you reason with such a person? Well, of course you can’t, and punishment is only another “challenge” to them, not a fearful thing like it would be to typical folks.

    I’ve read comments by researchers in psychopathy that state that they actually “do well” inside prison, but completely flop on the outside and end up “going home” to prison again.

    Patrick has never actually been a successful thief or killer, he has gotten caught 90% of the times he did anything serious or a felony, but because he has no fear punishment doesn’t deter him from trying the next hair brained scheme.

    From reading the letters he wrote to Hamilton about his ENTITLEMENT to everything our family has worked for for the past three generations and his blowing about how HE knows how to manage the estate when he’s never had a checking account make me belly laugh. (Now, that is, I didn’t laugh for a LONG TIME!)

    • Yeah, Joyce – it’s nuts how they’re “Big Fish” behind those prison walls. And, when you’re describing the entitlement and the arrogance, those are characteristics that CANNOT be altered through rehabilitation! And, the systems just don’t GET IT. UGH

      The movie was based upon a true story and it’s as sad as it can be. Very sad, very sick, and it was LONG before PTSD was even considered to be a serious problem.

  9. in Reply to Truthy’s post up above: Truthy the nicest thing about where in live in the boonedocks is that there is little violent crime directed at others. What little violent crime in this community is family related so not likely to be on my radar…the violent crime that WAS directed at me was family related (Patrick sent someone to kill me) so you know I actually feel very safe from any “random” crime

    People who rob folks’ houses make sure they are NOT home out here in the sticks because they know that almost all of the people have guns in their homes to defend themselves. Not so in the cities.

    Arkansas also recently passed an “open carry” law so a person can protect themselves which I think is a good thing, though I know that some people will brand me a “right wing extremist” for that view. Ever since the incident with Ken Hamilton, believe me, I keep a weapon HANDY in case I need it.

    I’ve lived in many LARGE cities, and have been the victim of assault, robbery and vandalism so I think I will pass on living in large cites where crime is more random. I also will not associate with folks in my circle who are prone to violence and I will to the best of my ability stay out of situations where violence might erupt.

    I know what you mean about reading the news, but I think at the same time that we need to be informed about what is going on in our country, but I have determined to not live in TERROR of anyone or any thing. but to know the dangers and to protect myself from them.

  10. Joyce, I know in my neck of the woods, you have the right to defend yourself, but not the right to defend your property.

    If someone breaks into your house and attacks you, you have every right to do whatever it takes to defend yourself or your family members from bodily harm. However, if someone is breaking into your shed, barn or truck- different scenario and you are not allowed to shoot them for it.

    I’m not sure how that applies to stealing or injuring/killing livestock, but everyone might check into that for themselves if or as it applies to their situation. Your mileage may vary, lather, rinse, repeat……

  11. Phoenix, it is pretty much the same here in Arkansas about using deadly force to protect property. But a couple of years ago a law was passed that the previous attorney general refused to “interpret” the murky language. The current attorney general has finally interpreted it that “open carry” is okay as long as YOUR INTENTION is not to commit a crime. So it is still somewhat murky, but it DOES give you more of a chance to carry if you don’t have a concealed permit.

    Sometimes just HAVING a gun will prevent a problem. I remember in 1981 I took my kids on a camping trip out “west” and in Wyoming we were camped in a remote spot on the sweet water river when two drunk oil rig workers passed us up to go fishing further down the river. About an hour before dark they came back and the older man was VERY drunk. I had my pistol on my belt under my sweater (maybe not legally) but you could tell I had a pistol. the older guy kept wanting to see it and I kept saying “No” then he “helped” me gather fire wood, and kept trying to position himself on my right side where the pistol was. I kept my left side to him. this went on for quite a while before the two of them left about midnight. I think to this day that if I had not had that pistol I might have been raped or worse.

    My little pistol has saved my hide on three occasions, that is only one of them.

    In Arkansas you are allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle if you are on a “journey” which is defined as going out of your county to an area you do not USUALLY travel to. In other words, if I worked in Little Rock (which is out of my county) but it was a REGULAR trip, then it would not be a “journey” and I would not be allowed to have a gun in my vehicle. HOWEVER, while it might not be entirely “legal” I’m an old lady and I can definitely play the “old lady” card, and I am NOT going to take it out and shoot someone who is not attacking me, but if I am broken down on the side of the road, you can bet it will be visible. Here at home, I have a pistol on a flat surface in every room because I don’t know when Patrick may send another “friend” and I need QUICK access to a gun. Children are not allowed in my home unless under my SIGHT 100% of the time, and children here is pretty rare anyway. I am very conscious of gun SAFETY. My son is an NRA trained and certified range safety officer and instructor so he and I both are very concerned with gun safety. But at the same time, we realize that if you need a gun, you NEED IT NOW not after you open the safe to get it.

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